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tell me about the SP

Fisher_Gate said:
I mainly dealt with them as Militant in the Labour Party throughout the 1980s and into the 1990s. They had many good well-meaning activists but to be frank as a group they were awful. They had the worst line of all the left groups on women's liberation and gay rights, arguing that these were "petit bourgeois deviations" from the economic struggle. They opposed Black sections in the Labour Party and were against black self-organisation in general.

They argued a very narrow economistic line that for every political problem the solution was "nationalisation of the commanding heights of the economy, through an enabling bill introduced into parliament by a Socialist Labour government". They characterised every other left group as "a petit bourgeois sect on the fringes of the Labour movement" (these are genuine quotes heard regularly by the way) and aggressively opposed anything that did not come through the official channels of the Labour movement or their own various front movements. Sometimes called "Robo-trot" because of their irritating habit of copying their central leader Ted Grant, who spoke by moving his arm up and down in rhythm with his monotonous delivery, his LPYS rally speeches and the sycophantic reception he got was a signt to behold. They had an awful position on Ireland, arguing for artificial unity between protestant and catholic workers on economic issues and avoiding the national question altogether. They created an international movement in their own image as a satellite from London, having left the Fourth International in 1964 (they claim to have been excluded but really they opted out in my view).

Clearly they became very large - having 3 MPs, leading two national trade unions and having members on the TUC General Council, having about 100 councillors, and a representative on the NEC of the Labour Party. Obviously it is best known that they led Liverpool City Council though the reality is more complex and the legacy of the struggle not so good. Heavily witch-hunted by the right wing in the Labour Party, though they were not really prevented from operating.

After the early 1990s they changed dramatically. They split with their leader for 40 years, Ted Grant, who formed the group Socialist Appeal. Left the Labour Party, became very good on women and gay rights, took up violence against women politically, began to work with other left groups, particularly through the "Network of Socialist Alliances" in the late 1990s.

While all this was healthy, I still have three main criticisms:
1) they still prefer to work through front groups, rather than genuine unity with other left wingers, and are rarely prepared to work in a situation where they are the minority and not in control; their exit from the Socialist Alliance was totally unnecessary and badly handled
2) having had a dodgy position in which they had illusions in the Labour Party and parliament, talking of a "Socialist Labour Government", they now have an ultra left position on the Labour Party, writing off all the left and even standing against John McDonnell in General Elections
3) while their international co-thinkers are now a more diverse bunch and there are some aspects of a debate, there is still a tendency for them to have uniform views and while proclaiming to be trotskyists they still ignore the largest group of trotskyists, without anything that amounts to a principled as opposed to tactical reason for their seperation from the Fourth International.
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They are actually spot on about petty distractions, the powers that be LOVE IT that left wing groups aim for smaller issues that do not mean anything to most of the working class
 
trevhagl said:
They are actually spot on about petty distractions, the powers that be LOVE IT that left wing groups aim for smaller issues that do not mean anything to most of the working class
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Errr, you speak in the present tense - what do you mean? SP now have some of the better positions on the left on say Lesbian & Gay rights or opposing violence against women, especially compared to that of Militant in the late 1970s/early 1980s.

Are you saying that Militant were right to oppose such "petty distractions", and the SP are wrong to take them up now?
 
Vintage Paw said:
Former member? Somebody better tell him because last time I looked he was still the SP councillor for St Michael's ward in Cov.
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He's a former member of the SA (who are no more). My mistake.

ETA: I see good old butcherscock has pitched up to have a pop. What a sad fuck. :D
 
Well, one thing is for sure. They don't like the swappies much:D

They also admit that the no2eu platform is weak, but endorse it as broadly the right thing and something worth being part of in order to be part of a process that goes further.
 
I agree with the ideas of the OP, I'd have probably joined the SP by now if it wasn't for some pretty bad experiences Ive had with one of their members both politically and personally. Its a shame really because but for that member they seem like a pretty sound group, I still think the SWPs analysis on most stuff is the best, better then the SP's, I just don't like the way they put it into practice, and dont think the SWP have the balance right between domestic and internationalist work. I know I haven't PMed you about stuff in Reading Frogwoman, (been really busy) but are you thinking of joining the SP? I was considering it in Reading. I think we may have met before, were you the female compere/MC at the Greenpeace halloween party?
 
i was thinking of joining it yeah - and no i'm not - greenpeace halloween party? :eek: :D

im not sure i recall meeting you tbh, altho im involved in loads of stuff like the PSC etc and i've probably bumped into you at something.

agree what you said re the SWP btw x
 
frogwoman said:
I think i will join them tbh :cool:
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I'm tempted but wary. They seem to be saying things and doing things that ring true with me-but my innate :hmm: kicks in a bit. They are bang on with visteon, and on message in plenty of other ways but my cynic side still has me all shift-eyed
 
frogwoman said:
That's the point, joining them doesnt work because they suck you in and burn you out ...
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Have you met up with the local swp to see if the reality matches the gruesome myth?

(into my 3rd decade in swp and no sign of burn-out for me.. just ain't combustible I guess..)
 
mutley said:
Have you met up with the local swp to see if the reality matches the gruesome myth?

(into my 3rd decade in swp and no sign of burn-out for me.. just ain't combustible I guess..)
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i have actually. a lot of them are really decent people, but they kept on hassling me to do stuff for them ... im sure its not like that everywhere, but there are a few things that put me off joining the SWP, that being one of them.

i do think sectarianism is a massive problem tho on the left ...
 
I agree about sectarianism. (the problem is how you define it of course...)

I'd say three things

1) I honestly think the swp got the Lindsey strike right, and the SP didn't. And no i don't want to go all around the houses about that again. (And the swp's practice around Visteon is as good as anyones imho)

2) SWP members can sometimes give the impression of wanting to rush around madly without being reflective-but I'd rather have that problem than its opposite (passivity).

3) If you genuinely think the SP are preferable then join 'em and fair play to you, but look at all options first. You can still do solidarity stuff with people while ur thinking about it. But at all times keep talking to and listening to everyone - I try to.
 
FW. What you have to think of and take seriously is whether you want to be subject to the discipline of democratic centralism. (Both the SP and the SWP and indeed the 100s of other far left micro groups, base their internal workings on this discipline.)

If not, then the SP or the SWP are not for you. It seems you are still testing the ideas and unless you can give a full and active commitment a broader based approach is needed. Unfortunately we havent got a broad based left party to satify that.

Good luck!
 
nightbreed said:
FW. What you have to think of and take seriously is whether you want to be subject to the discipline of democratic centralism. (Both the SP and the SWP and indeed the 100s of other far left micro groups, base their internal workings on this discipline.)
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I must admit I found this very hard. I got quite a ticking off once for voting against the rest of the party on an issue at an anti poll tax meeting.

I also didn't like the level of subs I was required to pay and the constant badgering to pay even more.
 
Geri said:
I also didn't like the level of subs I was required to pay and the constant badgering to pay even more.
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Its 'not subs required to pay' its 'sacrifice'!! That is what I was always told. I always felt my politics was being questioned if I didnt 'dig deeper' for the cause.
 
mutley said:
1) I honestly think the swp got the Lindsey strike right, and the SP didn't. And no i don't want to go all around the houses about that again. (And the swp's practice around Visteon is as good as anyones imho)
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Utterly fucking laughable.
 
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