tell me about the SP
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That's def not my experiene.
dennisr
the acceptable face
*thinks: poor geri*
audiotech
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Not the ones I met. They always found it difficult to coverse with Militant supporters, they usually mumbled something under their breath that I couldn't quite catch.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
A piece by Peter Taaffe that demonstrates both the strengths and limitations of the SP's analysis:
http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2009/02/2302.html
A lot of the analysis (eg. re the refinery strikes) is very good.
But in terms of alternatives this is the crucial, and to my mind crucially inadequate part of the analysis that I think doesn't offer a genuine way forward:
You can't just say collectivize banking all under the state - with a bit of democratic "involvement", and then progress onto "nationalisation of the commanding heights", as though this means that workers would be any less forced to sell their labour power.
There is an account of a "transition" from capitalism through radical social democracy to some form of state managed socialism (with "involvement"), but no clear sense of why that society can or should be transitional to a "withering away" of the state and a genuinely classless society .
At the very least there needs to be a much more thorough-going notion of how new forms of "democratic involvement" would work and how they would allow transfer power not only away from the capitalists but also the bureaucrats of the state.
http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2009/02/2302.html
A lot of the analysis (eg. re the refinery strikes) is very good.
But in terms of alternatives this is the crucial, and to my mind crucially inadequate part of the analysis that I think doesn't offer a genuine way forward:
You can't just say collectivize banking all under the state - with a bit of democratic "involvement", and then progress onto "nationalisation of the commanding heights", as though this means that workers would be any less forced to sell their labour power.
There is an account of a "transition" from capitalism through radical social democracy to some form of state managed socialism (with "involvement"
), but no clear sense of why that society can or should be transitional to a "withering away" of the state and a genuinely classless society . At the very least there needs to be a much more thorough-going notion of how new forms of "democratic involvement" would work and how they would allow transfer power not only away from the capitalists but also the bureaucrats of the state.
DownwardDog
Well-Known Member
The way this thread started with someone wanting to get more involved in left politics and then descended into hairsplitting sophistry over matters of arcane dogma is the reason capitalists sleep like babies.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
yes, hairsplitting dogma like whether she'll be getting active in a movement that would - if effective - lead to the emancipation of the working class or whether the ideas of that organisation ultimately point toward a repressive bureaurcratic state 
edit - ultimately, she could do a lot, lot worse than join the SP. All I'm saying is if she does, she shouldn't expect that she is joining an organisation that knows all the answers (which is impossible of course) - and that other people from other traditions have important ideas too
edit - ultimately, she could do a lot, lot worse than join the SP. All I'm saying is if she does, she shouldn't expect that she is joining an organisation that knows all the answers (which is impossible of course) - and that other people from other traditions have important ideas too
danny la rouge
Ninja swords for all disabled people
That's because of who you were at the time.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Cheeky.
Geri
wasn't born to follow
frogwoman
Let them eat newts
yes, hairsplitting dogma like whether she'll be getting active in a movement that would - if effective - lead to the emancipation of the working class or whether the ideas of that organisation ultimately point toward a repressive bureaurcratic state
edit - ultimately, she could do a lot, lot worse than join the SP. All I'm saying is if she does, she shouldn't expect that she is joining an organisation that knows all the answers (which is impossible of course) - and that other people from other traditions have important ideas too
agree with that tbh - i never thoguht the sp would have all the answers and im a fairly independent minded person anyway, this thread has been quite interesting to read tbh. i still think i'm going to try and get along to some of my local meetings tho
my question re the "vanguardism" - now i know what it is
how much of a problem is it, i mean are they happ to work alongside people of other parties etc? they are/were in a coalition and in the CWI (which being an int'l organisation probably has many organisations which dont accord exactly with their beleifs) so much of an issue is it really? re swappies - i went along to an SWP meeting ages ago but they keep on trying to get me to join and i know what a reputation they have with being a cult etc, but the swp members i have met have mostly been really sound, and i agree with a lot of the stuff they say except the more "loony" stuff
and to me the SP seemed like that, but a lot more down to earth and in touch with local issues, and less cult-like in terms of wanting to retain members i dunno if that's a fair assessment or not
im still going to find a local branch and see if i like it though, only best way to find out is from the horses mouth imo
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
i dunno if that's a fair assessment or not
This is the right attitude to take.
I'm obviously biased, as a Socialist Party member myself, and would of course like to see as many people as possible join. But really I think that the best thing you can do is take a look at your nearest branch, meet them, see what they do and talk to them about their politics. That way you'll have a much better idea about whether the organisation is for you than you will ever manage to get from an internet discussion.
Geri
wasn't born to follow
dennisr
the acceptable face
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Although on second thoughts...
The Chelsea Girl strike? I remember that..... It 'inspired' the film 'Business as Usual' with Glenda Jackson.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
Not a bad film as it goes, several actual members of the MT in it. Glenda Jacksons home was filmed in a memebrs house.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
There is a branch in Reading, if Dennisr or anyone else does'nt sort you out, i'll pm you details.where do you live VP? I'm in Reading, a few months or so ago i saw their adverts for a new workers' party, (i think it was theirs anyway)
thanks for that - i will be sending you a pm
and durutti - vanguardist tendencies?what do you mean?
Very active in Southampton at the moment apparentely.
Recent front organisation seems to be Youth Fight For Jobs.
www.youthfightforjobs.com.
Since about a year or so back they seem to have been playing down CNWP, of which one leading member of SP quoted as saying would be like the formation of the Labour Party at the beginning of this century. However reality has caught up with them.
Pretty bad on anti imperialist/ national liberation issues. Still rely on ideas byb this pretty awful pamphlet 'Divide And Rule' Peter Hadden, makes Chris Bamberys assesment/ Pamphlet look good. Recent articles in Socialism Today around Israel/Palestinian conflict(they support two state solution) come close to racist;Fears of Palestinians outbreeding Israelis.
But as other posters on here have said, best of the Trot Left.
dennisr
the acceptable face
eh?? I've never heard of that
I don't really want to get drawn into a 'discussion' of any form with the wonderful character called Nigel.
To be frank, Nigel talks out of his arse - he generally does
He has been through most organisations on the UK left and anarchist orbit. Anarchist mates I worked very closely with on (anti-fascist and racist activity) warned me very strongly about him when he started chummying up to the SP for a while (he claimed he was a supporter while talking ridiculous bollocks here for a while). They don't trust him one bit and I can understand that from his behaviour. He now posts uncritical republican links all over u75 and fains friendship with his republican 'brothers' - I imagine most serious republicans would not touch him with a bargepole. And if they were to make such a mistake - more fool them. I imagine he justs likes to 'hang out' with the real hard 'anti-imperialists'. Weird fella. Despite his obsessive interest in real activists, I don't think he is a genuine tout - just the sort of dupe who likes to gob off - and is therefore capable of unwittingly passing on useful information.
Likes to look like he is 'in the know', that he knows everything about everyone of the left. Usually he will regurgutate the most recent thing he has read from the most recent organisation he is snuggling up to. Unfortunately, he knows a little bit about everything and a lot about nowt.
Dafter than a brush basically.
Hence the bollocks about pandering to racism.
(you see Nigel you really should not come out talking such appalling bollards because someone is sure to come along and let your little cat out of the bag - some of us have actually fought fascism etc rather than talked about it, we are trusted by people. The difference between you and me when making serious allegations - as you tried to - is that mine are facts rather than fantasy)
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
eh?? I've never heard of that
You haven't heard of it because it just sprang fully formed from one of the orifices of my unfortunate near-namesake.
What he means, presumably, is that the Socialist Party has argued for unity between Protestant and Catholic workers in Ireland and never cheered on the IRA. The reference to Palestine is more bizarre, but the underlying issue is that the Socialist Party takes a position of solidarity with the Palestinian people but doesn't cheer on Hamas.
Incidentally, in both Northern Ireland and Israel the largest hard left organisation is a sister organisation of the Socialist Party.
nightbreed
Im Bored
While Im not a member of the SP but have comrades in that organisation I do live in Southampton and I am active in the movement.
Youre talking shit, mate.
One thing the SP in Southampton are is consistent and true to their principles. So I concur with Dennisr that you are a complete PB charlatan.
Fuck off matey!!!
audiotech
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I used to work with that dilatantte - a general waiting for an army to lead. The SP bent over backwards to accomodate him. It was a lesson for us in not wasting too much time on 'unity' with so-called 'lefts' like that.
Not a fan then.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
In regards Palestin/Israel, this touches on it, there was another article but I can't find it at the moment. If you take this in context of two state solution( something in my opinion Israel would never genuinly allow even if Israel did become a 'socialist' zionist state), ends up with two competing ethnic/racial groups competing. Same argument about Catholics in North Of Ireland, Jews in Germany, Immigrants in this country etc, outbreeding the indigenous population; the opposite in this case.
"Also, the Palestinian population is growing faster than the Israeli Jewish one and will soon overtake it in the combined area covered by Israel and the PA. This led Sharon and most of the Israeli ruling class to change their historic position on the building of a Greater Israel (involving the annexation of the Gaza strip and West Bank). "
http://www.socialismtoday.org/98/israel.html
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I was very impressed by the SP's stance on the wildcat strikes, as well as other issues that I care about like Palestine etc, and would really like to know more about them tbh. they also don't seem very self righteous, and seem quite engaged with local issues rather than just international ones, whiich something that i agree has been a bit counterproductive for the left in this country to say the least ...
It seems to me tdhat they are one of the only parties that have an chnace of offering an alternative to the BNP and the mainstream political consensus in this climate.
can anyone tell me a bit more about them, either good or bad, because i'd just like some more info from anyone whose been a member or has had some involvement with them really
This man is a former member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Nellist
He was hounded out of the Labour Party by Kinnock and his chums.
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