Teenage double murdering twat sent down
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poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
I think the most urgent part that's needed is a programme of getting people into stable, well-paying work as fast as possible - and not just leaving people adrift after school-leaving age.
That means not creating a never-ending college/student class, easing up on the idea of "youth clubs" or music as some kind of answer and various other things which I feel may actually encourage a culture of never growing up and permanent adoloscence. In short, I think a lot of the solutions being presented are part of the problem.
What's needed is real jobs (with on-job training if necesary) for people to enter and start earning enough of a wage to be able to function within society (ie; able to rent their own flat independantly etc etc).
That means not creating a never-ending college/student class, easing up on the idea of "youth clubs" or music as some kind of answer and various other things which I feel may actually encourage a culture of never growing up and permanent adoloscence. In short, I think a lot of the solutions being presented are part of the problem.
What's needed is real jobs (with on-job training if necesary) for people to enter and start earning enough of a wage to be able to function within society (ie; able to rent their own flat independantly etc etc).
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
littlebabyjesus said:
What you generally do have the opportunity to do, if you're a lifer, is to atone for your wrongdoing and help yourself through doing so.
dennisr
the acceptable face
tbaldwin said:
If I met you in a pub, had a few beers and someone tried to defend the appalling corruption, waste, hypocricy, complacancy, bullshite, greed and cant (etc etc) we both see all around us, and the consequences of this you wouldn't be able to stop me ranting on about it until the cows come home - or I run out of money.
I just don't think i have much to add here in the P+P boards - except pointing out the obvious jump from our common agreement to the usual line you always manage to throw in. And there is no point me repeating my view that this simply is not true - i've tried that too many times already. Given up mate - its pointless
dennisr said:If I met you in a pub, had a few beers and someone tried to defend the appalling corruption, waste, hypocricy, complacancy, bullshite, greed and cant (etc etc) we both see all around us, and the consequences of this you wouldn't be able to stop me ranting on about it until the cows come home - or I run out of money.
If you talked like that id keep buying you drinks all night,out of my vastly inflated wages..
Dissident Junk
picking oakum
poster342002 said:
Bloody hell, I really like the idea of an 'internal Marshall plan'.
But it would probably be abused in some way.
This story is, well, what can you say? The lad is obviously so far down the wrong road that I can't even comprehend what's going on in his head, particularly the report he shouted 'pussy' at the top of his face as they led him out of court after sentencing.
He must be living in some weird mental space.
Very frightening really.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
As I say, it needs to be set up in such a way that it completely bypasses and excludes the layers of pilot-fish that are drawn to such schemes as they have been set up previously. How did the original 'marhsal plan' avoid this? My guess is that the way forward would be a mixture of that plus a few new ideas. I cannot emphasise hard enough that we could NOT afford this to be yet another gravy-train providing middle class pilotfish with lucrative careers.dennisr said:
As I said in an earlier post, I think the most urgent part that's needed is a programme of getting people into stable, well-paying work as fast as possible - and not just leaving people adrift after school-leaving age.
That means NOT creating a never-ending college/student class of people, easing up on the idea of "youth clubs" or music as some kind of answer and various other things which I feel may actually encourage a culture of never growing up and permanent adoloscence. In short, I think a lot of the solutions currently being presented are part of the problem.
What's needed is real jobs (with on-job training if necesary) for people to enter and start earning enough of a wage to be able to function within society (ie; able to rent their own flat independantly etc etc).
Things have reached crises point and HAVE to change fast. It CANNOT go on like this.
dennisr said:
I think the thing is that those people always know the language to use to get funding, they totally make up stats and evidence to make themselves look good.
How do you really keep the parasites away?
I think poster makes loads of good points but dont agree with him if he underestimates the role youth and social clubs can play?
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
I think part of the problem is that a lot of these youths need to move into a more adult mindset - and I'm not sure the whole youth-club thing helps acheive that rather than assist a perpetualisation of adolscence. Ditto never-ending college schemes, attempts to get them into the music scene (which leaves a LOT to be desired at the moment) and so forth.tbaldwin said:
I'm far more in favour of a massive job/work investment - and I mean proper, reasonably-paid, secure jobs that enable them to move into that adult world where they can enjoy the benefits of a decent wage, flat and worthwhile leisure activities they could then afford. I believe this is the ONLY way we'll start to drag our society back to some kind of stability.
Dissident Junk
picking oakum
I would add to the discussion above by suggesting that what could be needed is investment into adult civic programmes as well.
To me, there is no point creating an 'age oasis' where accessible local music, sports or social provision stops at a certain age. One major aspect of youth programmes should be that they deliver, or introduce, young people into a wider adult field successfully.
I think we abandon young people to the vicious forces of adulthood in a very stark fashion in the UK - there's no system of wider 'pastoral' care for young adults once they get past a certain age. For some, this comes when they reach 18 and, suddenly, they expected to know how the real world works, and to survive in it. For others it comes at 21, when they leave university expected to know how to exist within a world with very little 'real' advice or help.
There used to be a time when civic society had these sorts of mechanisms in place. The approach, then, was more focused on creating youth divisions of adult organisations, rather than just creating something to keep the kids preoccupied, but now this has all disappeared.
I keep coming back, in my mind, to one of the most resilient youth opportunities we have in our area, which is the young Harriers (the under 18s version of the local Harriers running club). Naturally, running costs money (for trainers, gear, you need someone to drop you off at the club or your bus fare) so it is pretty limited to lower middle and middle class kids, but the club delivers youths at the end of their youth tenure into an adult organisation that they already understand, know the people and are excited about joining. The transition is well managed.
I guess the reson why I am making this point is that I think the whole of British society needs a stern looking at. I do believe that if more adults got involved in activities outside the home, then their kids would be more encouraged to explore other opportunities.
To me, there is no point creating an 'age oasis' where accessible local music, sports or social provision stops at a certain age. One major aspect of youth programmes should be that they deliver, or introduce, young people into a wider adult field successfully.
I think we abandon young people to the vicious forces of adulthood in a very stark fashion in the UK - there's no system of wider 'pastoral' care for young adults once they get past a certain age. For some, this comes when they reach 18 and, suddenly, they expected to know how the real world works, and to survive in it. For others it comes at 21, when they leave university expected to know how to exist within a world with very little 'real' advice or help.
There used to be a time when civic society had these sorts of mechanisms in place. The approach, then, was more focused on creating youth divisions of adult organisations, rather than just creating something to keep the kids preoccupied, but now this has all disappeared.
I keep coming back, in my mind, to one of the most resilient youth opportunities we have in our area, which is the young Harriers (the under 18s version of the local Harriers running club). Naturally, running costs money (for trainers, gear, you need someone to drop you off at the club or your bus fare) so it is pretty limited to lower middle and middle class kids, but the club delivers youths at the end of their youth tenure into an adult organisation that they already understand, know the people and are excited about joining. The transition is well managed.
I guess the reson why I am making this point is that I think the whole of British society needs a stern looking at. I do believe that if more adults got involved in activities outside the home, then their kids would be more encouraged to explore other opportunities.
poster342002 said:
I don't think you are going to be able to provide many reasonably-paid jobs to people who will probably have given up on school and thus have no qualifications, be borderline illiterate with a big ego and an attitude problem.
And would they be willing to work at a job all week for, lets face it, not that much money, when crack-dealing offers much better prospects? At least, until you get shot or stabbed.
Giles..
Errol's son
Well-Known Member
pk said:
He is Angolan though...
Nigeria would be a far better place though. Angola is becoming alright now, much better than Nigeria anyway...
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
poster342002 said:Err - yes, that's actually what I meant (see my comment about the fall of Berlin not being a pretty sight). But that didn't then result in a whole generation of German teenagers going around committing idiotic violence for years afterwards
Like the BaaDer Meinhoff and various other nutters both left and right.
Although 'atrocities' are extremley over exagerated of what the Brave and Herioc forces of the USSR did, the brutalisation of the Slav peoples and others in E. Europe and Russia (which was far more extreme than anything in W.Europe) must have had some affect on Russian Soldiers heavy handed approach when they liberated Germany.
JHE
.
Do traumatic experiences in childhood or youth produce mad, bad, dangerous people?
I think they can and I'd like to hand on a theory that was put to me by someone who is in a position to have reflected a great deal on the question:
It is a matter of whether the person is and feels properly understood. If many many people who are around have suffered in the same way, they understand each other and they tend not to become very odd. On the other hand, if you are surrounded by people who have not been through the same experience, you are likely not to feel properly understood and are much more at risk of madness or great badness.
I think they can and I'd like to hand on a theory that was put to me by someone who is in a position to have reflected a great deal on the question:
It is a matter of whether the person is and feels properly understood. If many many people who are around have suffered in the same way, they understand each other and they tend not to become very odd. On the other hand, if you are surrounded by people who have not been through the same experience, you are likely not to feel properly understood and are much more at risk of madness or great badness.
I hope they can teach him that what they did is wrong. You know what they say, guilt is the worst punishment you can have.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
I'm hardly known for my liberal views regarding serious criminals, but I'm uneasy at handing out adult sentences to juveniles. (I know he was sentenced under guidelines for under-18s, but 30 years is an adult sentence in my book.) Without disputing the horror of what Malasi did, I've always disliked society's eagerness to grant responsibilities before rights. If it's acceptable to sentence someone to 30 years gaol for a crime they commited at the age of 17, fine, but they should be treated like an adult outside the courtroom.
pk said:
Angola: and yeah, good idea. Deport him as an adult back to a country where he can't even speak the language for a crime he committed as a child. Only survival option he could possibly have there is violence but I suppose Africans suffer violent deaths all the time. Not our problem anyway.
Are you in favour of transportation for UK crims n' all?
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