Teachers to get legal right to restrain pupils

[feyr]

i work in a residential special needs/medical needs school, and all staff who have any contact with students are trained in restraint. we use P.R.I.C.E ( protecting rights in a care enviroment) which is effective but not aggresive. there is no way we would ever sit on a students chest, or even use any restraint that puts any pressure on the chest. i think teachers in mainstream schools should be taught the same techniques , but also how to deal with the aftermath of using a restraint

 

[Callie]

like when the parents come up the school looking for the teacher

 

[Cloo]

I do think some particularly obnoxious kids like to make and song and dance about 'I'll have you done if you touch me' and it would be good for teachers to be able to be able to deal with certain situations knowing they're in the right and that some brat won't have the right to drag them through the mud because of it. However, I still don't see that this legislation will give teachers this certainty.

 

[Shmu]

Well I spose it'd be OK to twat someone with the blackboard duster if they had a knife or something

I wouldn't advocate taking on a kid with a knife, armed with a blackboard duster!

 

[Shmu]

"Teachers will be given the clear legal right to discipline unruly pupils and restrain them through the use of "reasonable force", ministers announced today."

I agree that the right to restrain is necessary, but "discipline" is a different matter.

Surely this bill is bringing back corporal punishment through the back door?

I think Feyr's suggestion makes total sense.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

I totally agree with Feyr otherwise yes it will be corporal punnichment by the back door. Despite corporal punnishment having been banned when I was in school we still had a teacher who used to hit us, it was totally arbitary and the schools excuse when challenged was that the 'teacher was under alot of strain in his personal life' Oh ok so that makes it fine for him to hit ordinary, not particularly badly behaved 9 year olds... I see
This teacher in particular used it becuase he failed to make any effort control his class and even minor misdemeanours he felt should be punnished using slapping and hitting. I'd hate to see a situation where teachers abused legistlation to do that. I dont believe many would but there is a minority who would act just like my old teacher.
He made a huge mistake buying the house next door to my olds to rent out when he'd just taught my brother( and was still hitting) every time he visited his tyres were let down

 

[jaylon]

Ever tried to get an authority to deal with a persistantly violent/seriously disruptive child? Usually they don't want to know & getting them to remove a kid from a school before a serious incident is virtually unheard of.
......
I've disarmed/restrained some very troubled kids (ie adult-size/strength teenagers) who thought nothing of seriously assaulting other pupils, or pulling a knife on teachers. Only to end-up on a final written warning, subject to complaints & investigation (allways exhonerated BTW) etc whilst the kid was either back in class the next day, or at most after a 3-day suspension when the authority failed to adress the child's problems. You walked a very fine line indeed!

I think I see what you're saying - that teachers are stuck with difficult pupils and they should be supported if they have to restrain pupils, which I would agree with.

But what the release seemed to be saying (correct me if you have more info) was that this would be accepted as a valid way of dealing with situations.

If the authorities can't do anything, shouldn't the schools have their own procedure? When I was a lifeguard I was threatened more than once, and I hit a button and got six members of staff there as support and witnesses. I've done event security, and always went in twos to check incidents out.

What's going to happen when a teacher is less physically confident and can't restrain someone?

 

[Shmu]

Despite corporal punnishment having been banned when I was in school we still had a teacher who used to hit us, it was totally arbitary and the schools excuse when challenged was that the 'teacher was under alot of strain in his personal life' Oh ok so that makes it fine for him to hit ordinary, not particularly badly behaved 9 year olds... I see
This teacher in particular used it becuase he failed to make any effort control his class and even minor misdemeanours he felt should be punnished using slapping and hitting. I'd hate to see a situation where teachers abused legistlation to do that. I dont believe many would but there is a minority who would act just like my old teacher.

We had Mr Trapp who was like this - in fact there were a few who were really bonkers. In those days the teachers all used to cover each others' arses.

I had no idea that corporal punishment had been banned.

But the teachers acting like this certainly didn't sort out the discipline problems in my school.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

I think I must have caused him a sleepless night when I wrote in one of my books something like 'I dont like Mr Thomas becuase he hits us for no reason and I would like him to stop'
I remember the fear as he called me forward and asked me if I wrote it- I said no of course or I;d have been wallopped. I think the book went 'missing' soon afterwards bit not before I;d told my mum how scared I was of him and how scared I;d been when I'd written that in my book...

Now Im an adult and a parent I can see how that must have been for him ( good enough) and for my poor parents.

 

[_angel_]

Yes, in special schools anyway, training is a requirement for all staff authorised to restrain.



NO WAY! Anywhere allowing this sort of restraint is well out of order, knows it & IMO deserves closure.

Tbh that school did close - a lot of parents weren't very happy about it.

I can understand teachers need to defend themselves against kids - not just special schools by a long shot and sort of understand why they would want to be able to restrain in mainstream.

But really they shouldn't have to deal with kis that are that violent. They should be in a smaller school somewhere with special provision. Alas they are closing these types of school down and mainstream school's are powerless to do anything.

 

[treefrog]

According to the NUT we are entitled to use "reasonable force" in dangerous situations and I've attended several lectures so far on exactly what this entails. We don't recieve any training on safe methods of restraint that I know of, but I agree it would be extremely useful. TBH most teachers I know (myself included) would be very reluctant to touch a pupil under any circumstances, for fear of losing our reputations and our jobs...

 

[pogofish]

But what the release seemed to be saying (correct me if you have more info) was that this would be accepted as a valid way of dealing with situations.

If the authorities can't do anything, shouldn't the schools have their own procedure?

Yes, IMO it looks like reporting ahead of the facts. I don't see this as a green light to reinstate corporal punishment, rather it clarifies some ambiguities over the use of reasonable force in more serious incidents & for that alone, it is an improvement.

What is also worth remembering is that most schools had dropped CP well in advance of the ban. Some by as much as 4 or 5 years. Most of the generation of teachers I came up with were dead against CP in all but perhaps very limited circumstances & pretty clued-up on practical alternatives or trying to get to the root of a problem in other ways.

Schools are kind of hampered when it comes to setting-up their own procedures. There is a point where they have to refer problems to the authority but the usual response is to point the kid straight back at the school with little or no attempts at resolution until the matter is too serious to ignore.

 

[Shmu]

Yes, IMO it looks like reporting ahead of the facts. I don't see this as a green light to reinstate corporal punishment, rather it clarifies some ambiguities over the use of reasonable force in more serious incidents & for that alone, it is an improvement.

So, do you think the article quoted in the OP saying:

"Teachers will be given the clear legal right to discipline unruly pupils and restrain them through the use of "reasonable force", ministers announced today."

was just sloppy reporting, then?

"Discipline...through the use of ...force" is corporal punishment as I understand it.

 

[pogofish]

I'd prefer to wait & see what the chapter & verse says.

I also can't see how this could be squared without bypassing human rights legislation?

I very much doubt this will see a return to to the days of belt or cane, in all but the most serious cases anyway.

 

[JHE]

I very much doubt this will see a return to to the days of belt or cane, in all but the most serious cases anyway.

I do not believe there is any risk at all of a return of the cane/belt/strap/whatever - even in the 'most serious cases'.

That's not what the proposal is about.

 

[Shmu]

I very much doubt this will see a return to to the days of belt or cane, in all but the most serious cases anyway.

I doubt it too.

I don't think most teachers want that at all.

But I think the legislation should be as clear as possible to teachers and to parents, if we are to avoid confusion and extra litigaton.

This is being sold as being about restraint, but words such as "discipline" are slipping into the rhetoric. I'll be noticing if this is a one-off slip up, or whether it keeps sneaking in there.

If we are to look at reintroducing corporal punishment, then this should be openly discussed as a policy issue. If not, either the media or the briefing gov ministers should be more careful.

I'd prefer to wait & see what the chapter & verse says.

Fine.

I'm discussing the reports in the media, as I don't have time to read all the new legislation passed in its pure form.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

We don't recieve any training on safe methods of restraint that I know of, but I agree it would be extremely useful.

Tbh if it is going to be possible that teachers are going to have to engage in control and restraint then they should definately be taught safe methods - trying to restrain someone without training can potentially damage both them and you. But as its something which is possibly only going to be needed in some schools perhaps it should be done on a school by school basis.

 

[jaylon]

Tbh if it is going to be possible that teachers are going to have to engage in control and restraint then they should definately be taught safe methods - trying to restrain someone without training can potentially damage both them and you. But as its something which is possibly only going to be needed in some schools perhaps it should be done on a school by school basis.

There's no such thing as control and restraint of someone that isn't scared of you.

 

[Callie]

Not so sure about that - surely the police are able to do it? obviously there wold probably be more police involved though!

I also expect that the teachers would have to take each individual into account and assess whether or not restraint is necessary/suitable. So if theres a wee small female teacher and a 6 ft brusier male student messing around she probably wouldnt want to tackle him!

 

[keefor]

So, do you think the article quoted in the OP saying:

"Teachers will be given the clear legal right to discipline unruly pupils and restrain them through the use of "reasonable force", ministers announced today."

was just sloppy reporting, then?

"Discipline...through the use of ...force" is corporal punishment as I understand it.

I don't believe that anyone working in schools thinks for one minute that this has anything to do at all with corporal punishment.

There are 2 issues here;

Restraint - this is to do with situations where you are facing assault, a pupil is assaulting someone else or where a pupil is acting in a manner that is dangerous to themself or others. If a teacher in restraining a pupil dished out a bit of corporal punishment they would rightly be in deep trouble for it.

Discipline - I believe this has been mentioned in the case where the teacher or school are trying to enforce a sanction such as detention or internal exclusion and the parent or carer refuses to allow the pupil to do it. From what I can gather the parent/carer will no longer be able to do this. IMO this will be helpful as often the worst behaved pupils are those whose parents/carers do not back up the school.