Tate Gardens/Brixton Central Square
- Thread starter lang rabbie
- Start date
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I agree with most of what Lang Rabbie has posted.It seems that LR is arguing for "regeneration" or development that is small scale and related to peoples needs.Rather than the "prestiguous" type developments that are beloved of some local authorities/governments.Top down "Stalinist" style with loads of "consultation" thats ignored if it doesnt fit the "plan".
It rings true that a pro Labour officer could be holding it up.Labour will get back in and people are thinking about their future careers.Bootlicking their way up the promotion ladder.
The money involved in doing up the Gardens is relatively small compared to the grandiose scheme dreamt up by Brixton Town Centre Mge.I agree with Lang Rabbie it will be done quicker.
If the LibDem council try and sell the Raleigh Hall their will be a lot of complaints.It was the Labour council who wanted the big scheme to go ahead.Though their was no funding-even less now Kens ploughing money into an Olympic bid.I expect the Brixton Area committee will kick up a fuss.
The Raleigh Hall was put forward by the Labour Council as a community asset to be saved to IMO stop complaints about selling schools,libraries and housing.It was in the words of the Council to get people to focus on something "positive".
It rings true that a pro Labour officer could be holding it up.Labour will get back in and people are thinking about their future careers.Bootlicking their way up the promotion ladder.
The money involved in doing up the Gardens is relatively small compared to the grandiose scheme dreamt up by Brixton Town Centre Mge.I agree with Lang Rabbie it will be done quicker.
If the LibDem council try and sell the Raleigh Hall their will be a lot of complaints.It was the Labour council who wanted the big scheme to go ahead.Though their was no funding-even less now Kens ploughing money into an Olympic bid.I expect the Brixton Area committee will kick up a fuss.
The Raleigh Hall was put forward by the Labour Council as a community asset to be saved to IMO stop complaints about selling schools,libraries and housing.It was in the words of the Council to get people to focus on something "positive".
lang rabbie
Je ne regrette les gazebos
The vision thing
The Brixton Town Centre Team's latest Design Brief will apparently be presented to the Brixton Area Committee on 4 May
The Brixton Town Centre Team's latest Design Brief will apparently be presented to the Brixton Area Committee on 4 May
Interesting claims in an annex towards the end of the document:
That's quite funny. I bet that sentence went through several drafts.
How concerned should we be about the sense of unease and intimidation felt within this space caused, in part, by a relatively harmless activity?
Mrs Bucket feels unease and intimidation when she visits her council estate sister (who not only is relatively harmless but quite charming and certainly has better manners than Mrs Bucket).
Should the Mrs Buckets of Brixton be permitted to determine public policy? I think not but Sophie and Amy may disagree.
Perhaps the Tate Gardens drinkers should be sent to Cuba?
Ol Nick
beer in Brixton
I think that sentence is really quite good precisely because it does suggest the question you've just asked. Lots of relatively harmless activities can make me uneasy. For instance I wasn't too comfortable with the number of drunks and junkies that came out to sleep on the ground around the centre of Brixton this weekend. Of course they were pretty harmless (being unconscious and all) so maybe I should get on with it and just respect their choices.Anna Key said:
I wish I lived in Godalming or Tunbridge Wells where the secret police death squads would take care of this kind of problem on my behalf.
lang rabbie
Je ne regrette les gazebos
Street drinking...
Forgot to post, following last week's Brixton Area Committee, that there now appears to be a firm proposal for a "drink control area" covering the central Brixton parks, to replace the unenforceable current drinking bye-law.
The recommendation was that it would be introduced "in time for the late summer Bank Holiday (May 28th) The grounds for urgency were:
I had to leave before BAC got around to discussing it.
(The document was sent out with the BAC's second despatch and it still don't appear on the Lambeth website
)
What I have found on the Lambeth website today is:
Evaluation of the Waterloo Drinking Control Area pilot
People may want to discuss this at the Brixton Forum meeting.
Forgot to post, following last week's Brixton Area Committee, that there now appears to be a firm proposal for a "drink control area" covering the central Brixton parks, to replace the unenforceable current drinking bye-law.
The recommendation was that it would be introduced "in time for the late summer Bank Holiday (May 28th) The grounds for urgency were:
I had to leave before BAC got around to discussing it.
(The document was sent out with the BAC's second despatch and it still don't appear on the Lambeth website
)What I have found on the Lambeth website today is:
Evaluation of the Waterloo Drinking Control Area pilot
People may want to discuss this at the Brixton Forum meeting.
Brixton Hatter
Home is south London mate
interesting to read the report about Waterloo, which paints a very rosy picture with absolutely no negative effects mentioned. It all sounds very good but I can't help but think that there would be some unintended consequences - from displacement through to people losing what might be their only support network.
Why are they so threatened by "entrenched groups of street drinkers" that they feel they have to break them up?
Why are they so threatened by "entrenched groups of street drinkers" that they feel they have to break them up?
lang rabbie
Je ne regrette les gazebos
I'm not sure anyone in authority felt "threatened"...
You could pose a legitimate libertarian argument against the public authorities' paternalistic view on alcohol abuse and harm reduction.
Having seen lives destroyed by alcoholism, I'm inclined to a more interventionist approach. The key issue IMO is that such schemes should not be driven primarily by a "clean up the streets" agenda, which seemed to be the basis of the previous Brixton bye-law, but should have sufficient funding to focus on sorting out the wider problems that lead people to chronic alcoholism.
Lang Rabbie
You could pose a legitimate libertarian argument against the public authorities' paternalistic view on alcohol abuse and harm reduction.
Having seen lives destroyed by alcoholism, I'm inclined to a more interventionist approach. The key issue IMO is that such schemes should not be driven primarily by a "clean up the streets" agenda, which seemed to be the basis of the previous Brixton bye-law, but should have sufficient funding to focus on sorting out the wider problems that lead people to chronic alcoholism.
Lang Rabbie
edgarlesty
Viagra Gibbons
I think we should be told...
lang rabbie said:The people involved are aware that they can't just bulldoze the street-drinkers away and are talking to St Mungo's about running a project out of local voluntary sector premises (don't know if they've talked to the neighbours yet)QUOTE]
...whether this could actually become the Tate Gardens Drinking Advisory Group of U75 folklore?!
Mr Retro
Beware hedgehogs
I haven't read the whole thread again or the waterloo link (sorry) so tell me shut up if I'm drawing the wrong conclusion.
Isin't there a huge difference between breaking up entrenched drinkers who are in distress from alcoholism and need help, and, putting a blanket ban on drinking in public?
Will this really compell people who need it to seek help?
Or is this whole thing just to stop the mostly black people from meeting up for a few Guinnesses in Windrush Square when the weather permits?
This kind of thing will bring about the gentrification of Brixton faster than 10 Brixton Bars, IMO.
Isin't there a huge difference between breaking up entrenched drinkers who are in distress from alcoholism and need help, and, putting a blanket ban on drinking in public?
Will this really compell people who need it to seek help?
Or is this whole thing just to stop the mostly black people from meeting up for a few Guinnesses in Windrush Square when the weather permits?
This kind of thing will bring about the gentrification of Brixton faster than 10 Brixton Bars, IMO.
hipipol
Peckham Wry
Even when I was a kid...
..in Scotland, in Lincolnshire, even in bloody genteel Cheltenham, there have always been bunches of old piss heads in parks.
Personally I'd rather have them where they are then all hanging about in Brockwell Park, the Herne Hill gate is awful as it is, imagine the numbers up by a factor of five or so and the fucking park is ruined-far better a shite stretch of concrete with one tree in it as a base.
If there is a new influx of dealers, well what are the fucking cops playing at?
With all those cameras they must have a very good idea of who's who by now, if not then they are an even bigger bunch of fuckwitz than I had thought!
Get in there arrest them you spineless twats, thats what you are paid for, not ;lounging round in groups of 15 harassing beggars.
The cameras are only some kind of deterent if people get busted because of them- I dont see that, I see it all getting done very blantantly every day, even at 7-30 in the fucking its "hey, what you looking for?"
The old piss heads are not intimidating, but in so far as the act as camoflage/hiding place for the "Bad Boys" they will be treated as part of the problem.
Come down heavy on the street dealers, a lot of the beggars will vanish cos they want to be near where they score, they are also part of this street drinking culture, no need for any extra Draconian powers, just need the cops to enforce the laws that already exist.
..in Scotland, in Lincolnshire, even in bloody genteel Cheltenham, there have always been bunches of old piss heads in parks.
Personally I'd rather have them where they are then all hanging about in Brockwell Park, the Herne Hill gate is awful as it is, imagine the numbers up by a factor of five or so and the fucking park is ruined-far better a shite stretch of concrete with one tree in it as a base.
If there is a new influx of dealers, well what are the fucking cops playing at?
With all those cameras they must have a very good idea of who's who by now, if not then they are an even bigger bunch of fuckwitz than I had thought!
Get in there arrest them you spineless twats, thats what you are paid for, not ;lounging round in groups of 15 harassing beggars.
The cameras are only some kind of deterent if people get busted because of them- I dont see that, I see it all getting done very blantantly every day, even at 7-30 in the fucking its "hey, what you looking for?"
The old piss heads are not intimidating, but in so far as the act as camoflage/hiding place for the "Bad Boys" they will be treated as part of the problem.
Come down heavy on the street dealers, a lot of the beggars will vanish cos they want to be near where they score, they are also part of this street drinking culture, no need for any extra Draconian powers, just need the cops to enforce the laws that already exist.
lang rabbie
Je ne regrette les gazebos
Don't shoot the messenger!
I don't have a hard copy of the report that went to the Area Committee with me, so can't answer on any matters of detail.
I certainly think that questions should be posed at the Forum tomorrow on:
1. Why is there an apparent inconsistency between the sudden claimed need for urgent action to implement the and the earlier statements in the crime section of the Central Square "design brief" (post 34 above)that street drinking
2. What is known about what proportion of street drinkers in Brixton have other problems such as homelessness, hard drug habits etc. How does this compare to Waterloo?
3. Are St Mungos and other agencies adequately staffed/resourced to deal with the proposed Brixton scheme as well as the ongoing work in North Lambeth?
I don't have a hard copy of the report that went to the Area Committee with me, so can't answer on any matters of detail.
I certainly think that questions should be posed at the Forum tomorrow on:
1. Why is there an apparent inconsistency between the sudden claimed need for urgent action to implement the and the earlier statements in the crime section of the Central Square "design brief" (post 34 above)that street drinking
2. What is known about what proportion of street drinkers in Brixton have other problems such as homelessness, hard drug habits etc. How does this compare to Waterloo?
3. Are St Mungos and other agencies adequately staffed/resourced to deal with the proposed Brixton scheme as well as the ongoing work in North Lambeth?
Brixton Hatter
Home is south London mate
Absolutely!Mr Retro said:
That might be a reasonable assumption to some people.Mr Retro said:
This is a legitimate worry and goes back to the first point I've quoted above. Is this about helping people? Or is it about "cleaning up" the streets so they look acceptable to visitors/yuppies/whoever. I agree that getting the crack-dealing scum out of Brixton is far more of a priority than a few drinkers in the square.Mr Retro said:
Brixton Hatter
Home is south London mate
It's not been taken has it?hendo said:
If I want to go and sit in Tate Gardens, that's exactly what I'll do. Ok - some people might be intimidated by the drinkers. I'm not. But if we had to please everyone..............
Brixton Hatter said:It's not been taken has it?
Ok - some people might be intimidated by the drinkers. I'm not. But if we had to please everyone..............
That's what I think. Often these days there's nobody there anyway. What's so very intimidating? I don't often want to sit there because its a crappy concrete landscape not so much cos of the piss heads. It's just people.
newbie
undisambiguated
I don't often want to sit there because it's on the edge of one of the busiest roundabouts in South London. Unless the grand design forsees a considerable reduction the noise and pollution from all the traffic (which includes loads of buses) that space just isn't going to be pleasant to sit in without anaesthetic.
At the moment there's a ready supply of people who use that space as part of the public provision. If they're forced to evaporate no-one will use it. Occasional bunches of Xtians with horribly distorted PAs maybe, but otherwise it'll be as empty and useless as Windrush Square. If there was a demand for high quality public space around there surely the Peace Garden would be more used? Someone sleeping it off , and a couple of refugees from the Town Hall skiving is all I ever see there (though I do accept that the dodgy guys furtling in the bushes trying to remember where they stashed their hit could be seen as being a bit offputting).
A question has been hanging throughout this thread, asked by a number of people: has the behaviour of the people who spend their time there really upset anybody? Further up this thread I said I'd never had any hassle there. Has anybody else?
We do have the report LR quoted: " Last summer there was public disorder in Brixton Oval." Could anyone remind me about this cos it was obviously so traumatic I've blanked it out completely.
At the moment there's a ready supply of people who use that space as part of the public provision. If they're forced to evaporate no-one will use it. Occasional bunches of Xtians with horribly distorted PAs maybe, but otherwise it'll be as empty and useless as Windrush Square. If there was a demand for high quality public space around there surely the Peace Garden would be more used? Someone sleeping it off , and a couple of refugees from the Town Hall skiving is all I ever see there (though I do accept that the dodgy guys furtling in the bushes trying to remember where they stashed their hit could be seen as being a bit offputting).
A question has been hanging throughout this thread, asked by a number of people: has the behaviour of the people who spend their time there really upset anybody? Further up this thread I said I'd never had any hassle there. Has anybody else?
We do have the report LR quoted: " Last summer there was public disorder in Brixton Oval." Could anyone remind me about this cos it was obviously so traumatic I've blanked it out completely.
I'd also like to know more about the Great Brixton Oval Riot of 2003.newbie said:
Was the Local State threatened with armed insurrection by the Tate Gardens Drinking Advisory Group? Were our esteemed politicians and senior bureaucrats obliged to retreat to their nuclear bunker beneath Windrush Square? Did Conservative, Liberal and New Labour Councillor alike shiver and comfort each other to the sound of a baying mob above their heads?
Was Cllr Janet Grigg
obliged to clutch a weeping Cllr Jonathan Myerson
to her bosom?
Indeed. Does the much-loved Tate institution Mr Faaaaarrrrk Ooooorrrrff really constitute a public disorder? Where are we? Hampstead Garden Suburb?newbie said:
I recall having a very nice drink with Anna Key on the Ritzy balcony one hot night last summer and being serenaded by one of the TGDAG delivering a lusty and rather soulful rendition of Cum By Ah, accompanied by a compadre on the bongos. Does this amount to public disorder? I thought it was sweet. It made me smile and is a ''Brixton moment'' I remember fondly.
[Wavy special effects. Cut to Brixton 10 years in the future]
Futureposter said:
[Wavy special effects. Back to the present. Thank fuck] ...........
lang rabbie
Je ne regrette les gazebos
Minutes of last week's meeting of Brixton Area Committee have now arrived on the Lambeth website:
There is also a lengthy note of the "grand plan" for the central square at agenda item 6.
There is also a lengthy note of the "grand plan" for the central square at agenda item 6.
As informative as minutes of this sort of meeting usually are! One bit of the minutes though says that the members of the Committee agreed to lobby against 'this borough wide approach' to creative & cultural industries. The implication in the text (page 3) is that they want everything in Brixton - or am I misunderstanding it?lang rabbie said:
lang rabbie
Je ne regrette les gazebos
Bob said:
Doesn't seem to quite match what I heard during the meeting.
The London Development Agency (controlled by Ken, funded by us) which had funded a short term post in Brixton Town Centreand the Arup Consultancy Report (still not available on the web???) has now turned down Brixton's bid for more resources. LDA are apparently only interested in a scheme for creative industries use of some space they are developing at Kennington.
Lambeth is apparently planning a borough wide creative industries strategy.
lang rabbie
Je ne regrette les gazebos
Was the central square/drinking control zone mentioned at last night's forum meeting?
Did anyone go???
Did anyone go???
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I was looking through the SLP website and found that the Raliegh Hall is a possible contender for a list of Council owned properties to be sold.Properties that are "surplus to requirements".
Cllr Jackie Meldrum(Lab) said that ,
"We need schools,buildings for community hubs and GPs need surgeries-where are they all going to go if these are sold off"
Check here on SLP website for "£20million sell off of buildings" and "Booze crusade is streets ahead".
http://icsouthlondon.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0400lambeth/
Cllr Jackie Meldrum(Lab) said that ,
"We need schools,buildings for community hubs and GPs need surgeries-where are they all going to go if these are sold off"
Check here on SLP website for "£20million sell off of buildings" and "Booze crusade is streets ahead".
http://icsouthlondon.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0400lambeth/
