tatchell gives it to galloway straight!

[cockneyrebel]

In all seriousness considering how homophobic this organisation was - the death penalty for gays ffs, don't you think Dr Naseem should be more forthright in distancing himself from the comments, and indeed condemn the people who did make those comments?

Imagine if someone in RESPECT had been a leader of an organisation that said that people in mixed race relationships should be given the death penalty?

Still I wouldn't wanna make a shibolleth out of gay rights.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

let us not forget that the slogan adopted out of that war remained on the masthead of SW for four decades - Neither Washington Nor Moscow, but International Socialism.
)

Neither Washington nor Moscow means not opposing the Vietnam War one week and then staying silent as tanks roll into Prague - not during an equals sign between a superpower like the USA and a small country like Vietnam.

Incidentally, WP have yet to explain how countries which never had organs of workers power such as Yugoslavia, Cuba, Vietnam or North Korea can be regarded as any form of workers state or even distorted or deformed workers states.

WP actually argue that North Korea is non-capitalist and that presumably because it has some "socialist property relations" it is superior to capitalist countries like the UK

 

[bolshiebhoy]

let us not forget that the slogan adopted out of that war remained on the masthead of SW for four decades - Neither Washington Nor Moscow, but International Socialism.

Too right. Much better than the Workers Bomb nonsense of cockney et al.

 

[Wilf]

Christopher Hitchens (who takes a similar line to you) referred to the resistance in Fallujah as "islamo-fascist Taliban fighters"

and double

 

[Random]

Christopher Hitchens (who takes a similar line to you) referred to the resistance in Fallujah as "islamo-fascist Taliban fighters"

4thwrite's position isn't anything like that of Hitchens. I can only assume that you're being needlessly offensive.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Incidentally, WP have yet to explain how countries which never had organs of workers power such as Yugoslavia, Cuba, Vietnam or North Korea can be regarded as any form of workers state or even distorted or deformed workers states.

We have, as have the Socialist Party. I'm not getting into a debate on it on this thread though.

Also I'm pretty sure that if the UK, USA or even South Korea attacked North Korea then the SWP would call for a victory to North Korea.

Too right. Much better than the Workers Bomb nonsense of cockney et al.

Not really related but there you go. But WP, the SP and any other socialist organisation that had a DWS theory were all very critical of the USSR, they just didn't equate the USSR with the USA.

Anyway on the actual subject of the thread, as said Udo:

In all seriousness considering how homophobic this organisation was - the death penalty for gays ffs, don't you think Dr Naseem should be more forthright in distancing himself from the comments, and indeed condemn the people who did make those comments?

Imagine if someone in RESPECT had been a leader of an organisation that said that people in mixed race relationships should be given the death penalty?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Also I'm pretty sure that if the UK, USA or even South Korea attacked North Korea then the SWP would call for a victory to North Korea.

You're not a stupid bloke and as this seemed important to you when you had an SWPer on the run: the small difference this time around is that the USSR doesn't exist. The IS had a perfectly correct position which is a thousand times better than "we defend the imperfect bureaucracy's right - and bear in mind we're very critical of said bureaucracy - to irradiate US/UK workers in defence of their superior social relations of production".

 

[Groucho]

In all seriousness considering how homophobic this organisation was - the death penalty for gays ffs, don't you think Dr Naseem should be more forthright in distancing himself from the comments, and indeed condemn the people who did make those comments?.

Yes, I do. But let's not attribute to Dr Naseem views he has stated that he does not hold. Dr Naseem does not support the death penalty for homosexuals as has been suggested in this thread. If he did advocate anything of the sort Respect would kick him out.

Still I wouldn't wanna make a shibolleth out of gay rights.

WP have consistently misrepresented the 'shibolleth' statement by Lindsey German. She was opposing the idea that the SWP should not work with anyone in the Stop the War Coalition who did not sign up to a raft of left policies from immigration to gay rights.

Respect quite rightly have a very clear - and far better than the mainstream parties - position of support for LGTB rights. Long may that be so.

 

[chilango]

Yes, but there's not really that many of them.

It's like Vietnam. Either the US was going to defeat the Viet Cong and NVLA or the latter were going to defeat the former. At some point it's necessary to ask "which of these would you prefer"? You don't have to like any of them, but to some degree it's unreasonable to abstain from difficult choices whle weighing in against other people who do not absolve themselves.

Who did you cheer for in the Iraq / Iran war then?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Who did you cheer for in the Iraq / Iran war then?

Once the US threw their naval weight behind Iran, the IS supported Iraq. Cliff leading the way on that one

 

[Wilf]

Who did you cheer for in the Iraq / Iran war then?

yeah, who did you want to win? Like you said, there's no sitting on the fence

 

[cockneyrebel]

You're not a stupid bloke and as this seemed important to you when you had an SWPer on the run: the small difference this time around is that the USSR doesn't exist. The IS had a perfectly correct position which is a thousand times better than "we defend the imperfect bureaucracy's right - and bear in mind we're very critical of said bureaucracy - to irradiate US/UK workers in defence of their superior social relations of production".

Fair enough, the SWP did see the USSR as an imperialist capitalist country and sees Korea as just a capitalist country. This isn't really the thread to go into a DWP vs state capitalist debate though. But you're not a stupid bloke either and know that the position of people who had a DWS theory wasn't that they defended the DWSs right to "irradicate" the US/UK classes. But as said this isn't the thread for this....

Yes, I do. But let's not attribute to Dr Naseem views he has stated that he does not hold. Dr Naseem does not support the death penalty for homosexuals as has been suggested in this thread. If he did advocate anything of the sort Respect would kick him out.

But he was a leading member of an organisation that did. This isn't just mild homophobia, but calling for death for gays. In the circumstances don't you think Dr Naseem should condemn the people who said this?

Respect quite rightly have a very clear - and far better than the mainstream parties - position of support for LGTB rights. Long may that be so.

Well the even the RESPECT conference seemed to accept that you were too ambiguous about it at the last election but there you go.

WP have consistently misrepresented the 'shibolleth' statement by Lindsey German. She was opposing the idea that the SWP should not work with anyone in the Stop the War Coalition who did not sign up to a raft of left policies from immigration to gay rights.

Sorry but to refer to gay rights as a "shibolleth" in any context is wrong in my view.

 

[knopf]

yeah, who did you want to win? Like you said, there's no sitting on the fence

Yep... no "absolving" youself, now.

And while we're about it -- smooth peanut butter or crunchy?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Sorry but to refer to gay rights as a "shibolleth" in any context is wrong in my view.

Sorry but that's just liberal grandstanding. Marxism isn't about pinning your beliefs on your chest and beating it, it's a guide to struggle. And in that struggle you often work alongside people with views you don't share. A constant theme in Lenin on religion is how the worst thing marxists can do is create a wall between themselves and religious workers by shoving their atheism in those workers faces and making that an obstacle. Including on issues of sexual rights etc. I don't know what the Russian for "shibolleth" is but I'm sure he used it.

 

[In Bloom]

Yes, but there's not really that many of them.

Organising over 23,000 workers in Iraq's oil and gas industries, the Federation of Oil Unions in Iraq (IFOU) is struggling against both the US/UK military occupation and the corporate-led privatisation of Iraq's industry. The president of the federation, Hasan Jumaa Awad, is touring the UK and addressing public meetings during November and December

Hardly insignificant, are they?

 

[chilango]

Hardly insignificant, are they?

Yeah. But are they carbombing civilians or cutting workers heads off on teevee?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Sorry but that's just liberal grandstanding. Marxism isn't about pinning your beliefs on your chest and beating it, it's a guide to struggle. And in that struggle you often work alongside people with views you don't share. A constant theme in Lenin on religion is how the worst thing marxists can do is create a wall between themselves and religious workers by shoving their atheism in those workers faces and making that an obstacle. Including on issues of sexual rights etc. I don't know what the Russian for "shibolleth" is but I'm sure he used it.

I'll try to remember that when I my head kicked in by some fucking religious bigot because he don't like the fact that I suck cock occasionally.

Sometimes you have to draw a line in the sand and I draw that line at cosying up with religious bigots whether they be 'workers' or not.

 

[chilango]

...and what the "Resistance" cheerleaders forget is that once they win they will eagerly get on with butchering trade unionists and executing socialists etc. but, hey, its a blow against US imperialism, no?

Just like Iran.

or Sudan.


Woo!

 

[tbaldwin]

Sorry but that's just liberal grandstanding. Marxism isn't about pinning your beliefs on your chest and beating it, it's a guide to struggle. And in that struggle you often work alongside people with views you don't share. A constant theme in Lenin on religion is how the worst thing marxists can do is create a wall between themselves and religious workers by shoving their atheism in those workers faces and making that an obstacle. Including on issues of sexual rights etc. I don't know what the Russian for "shibolleth" is but I'm sure he used it.

I dont think a good way to counter irrational prejudice is to go along with it for part of the way.
I think that people are only won over to rationality by countering irrationality.

 

[redsquirrel]

yeah, who did you want to win? Like you said, there's no sitting on the fence

To be fair he said that it's unreasonable to do that while condeming someone else for taking a side, so it is a slightly different arguement he is making. Though one that is still nonsense IMO.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

...and what the "Resistance" cheerleaders forget is that once they win they will eagerly get on with butchering trade unionists and executing socialists etc. but, hey, its a blow against US imperialism, no?

Just like Iran.

or Sudan.


Woo!

Or Vietnam.

Or Ireland....

or any number of nationalist struggles that so many lefties who have an issue with Islam didn't have a problem supporting. You'll have to try better than saying that these guys aren't pro-working class. We know that. Neither were the Viet Minh or the IRA (of Collins or Adamas variety). It's not why socialists have a duty to support them against the bigger evil of unretsrained imperialism.

 

[chilango]

Or Vietnam.

Or Ireland....

or any number of nationalist struggles that so many lefties who have an issue with Islam didn't have a problem supporting. You'll have to try better than saying that these guys aren't pro-working class. We know that. Neither were the Viet Minh or the IRA (of Collins or Adamas variety). It's not why socialists have a duty to support them against the bigger evil of unretsrained imperialism.

so in keeping with the bigger goal, you´ll sacrifice socialist etc. movements for maybe generations in Iraq?

A bit like how the WRP justified shopping those activists to be executed in Iraq in the 80s?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

I dont think a good way to counter irrational prejudice is to go along with it for part of the way.
I think that people are only won over to rationality by countering irrationality.

Bless ,the Enlightenment lives and breathes. Can't agree though, the best way to undermine backward ideas is in common struggle. The best way to win people from homophobic ideas is to have them find themselves on a picketline or protest where they have to stand shoulder to shoulder with gays aginast the police or boss. Not preaching at them from afar that their ideas are from the dark ages.

 

[Wilf]

Yep... no "absolving" youself, now.

And while we're about it -- smooth peanut butter or crunchy?

Okay - Iraq and crunchy.

Also, I'd opt for:
Man United in Football
Journey South in't X Factor
Bobby Ball in't Jungle
Dogs over cats

Nobody accuses me of sitting on the fence

 

[bolshiebhoy]

so in keeping with the bigger goal, you´ll sacrifice socialist etc. movements for maybe generations in Iraq?

A bit like how the WRP justified shopping those activists to be executed in Iraq in the 80s?

Eh? The IS was one of the few voices to air criticism of the Stalinists in Vietnam even while defending them against the US at a time when the rest of the left was cheerleading Hi Chi Minh (and his workers bomb cockers ). Why would our tradition be any less willing to oppose the Resistance movement in Iraq when it victimises socialists/women or anyone else?

 

[chilango]

Bless ,the Enlightenment lives and breathes. Can't agree though, the best way to undermine backward ideas is in common struggle. The best way to win people from homophobic ideas is to have them find themselves on a picketline or protest where they have to stand shoulder to shoulder with gays aginast the police or boss. Not preaching at them from afar that their ideas are from the dark ages.

No offence.

But would you stand on a picket line next to a fascist?

Cos thats what your argument suggests.

Besides how many picket lines do you think you´ll get in Iraq when the Islamists win?

 

[tbaldwin]

Bless ,the Enlightenment lives and breathes. Can't agree though, the best way to undermine backward ideas is in common struggle. The best way to win people from homophobic ideas is to have them find themselves on a picketline or protest where they have to stand shoulder to shoulder with gays aginast the police or boss. Not preaching at them from afar that their ideas are from the dark ages.

So if they attended the picket with Gay people,you think that would change their minds?
Me,Im not so sure. I think religious and homophobic bigotry goes deeper than that and has to be faced down.

The common struggle thing to me really is leftie shite. People dont just struglle when on strike etc.

 

[chilango]

Eh? The IS was one of the few voices to air criticism of the Stalinists in Vietnam even while defending them against the US at a time when the rest of the left was cheerleading Hi Chi Minh (and his workers bomb cockers ). Why would our tradition be any less willing to oppose the Resistance movement in Iraq when it victimises socialists/women or anyone else?

Good.

We´re not hearing it now though.

Anyone who raises concerns about the nature of the movement in Iraq is told to stop fence sitting and accused of supporting the US.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Me,Im not so sure. I think religious and homophobic bigotry goes deeper than that and has to be faced down.

.

Well said. There is a world of difference between engaging respectfully ('scuse pun) with those who may for religious or cultural reasons may be screaming homoand bi phobes but that doesn't excuse the whole sale capitulation to people of one faith.

NB I'd feel the same way if the Swappies teamed up with the paramilitary wing of the church of england or started calling themselve Respect - the party for Methodists.

 

[bolshiebhoy]

The common struggle thing to me really is leftie shite. People dont just struglle when on strike etc.

We won't agree on this but I believe these ideas have a material base. The only way to ultimately shift them on a mass scale is by engagement in a material struggle for a different world, not in writing clever opinion pieces on the backwardness of Islam vis a vis gays. Not that the battle ideas isn't important it is. But it has to have a material support.