Taliban attack Bacha Khan University

[butchersapron]

Think the thread title will need changing at some point - Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan are the group who have been attacking places of study, not 'the taliban' as normally used.

edit: and they're the taliban denying responsibility in the link newbie just posted.

 

[YouSir]

"the group's main spokesman, Mohammad Khurasani, later told the BBC the Taliban had not been involved. He condemned the attack as "un-Islamic".

'A senior Taliban commander, Umar Mansoor, told the media the attack was in response to a military offensive against militant strongholds. He said four suicide attackers had carried out the attack.'

Well someone's in for a bad time then.

 

[editor]

at what point on this thread would you like to see it change from 'scum' to some sort of analysis of their action? page 1? page 2? page 15?

I'm sticking with scum. No sure what kind of analysis would provide any different conclusion for scumbags who go around slaughtering students.

 

[frogwoman]

Afghanistan: Bomb explodes near Kabul Russia embassy - BBC News

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm sticking with scum. No sure what kind of analysis would provide any different conclusion for scumbags who go around slaughtering students.

so your map of the afghan and pakistan conflicts would be along the lines of various scum do things to other scum and now again the scum massacre wedding parties or school pupils or college students.

 

[seventh bullet]

Don't bother trying to understand it, share with everyone what you feel about it, that's more important.

 

[editor]

so your map of the afghan and pakistan conflicts would be along the lines of various scum do things to other scum and now again the scum massacre wedding parties or school pupils or college students.

I'm talking about this particular gang of murdering scumbags. How would you like to describe them? Misunderstood?

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm talking about this particular gang of murdering scumbags. How would you like to describe them? Misunderstood?

no, i would describe them as insurgents. i don't see what's to gain by describing them as vermin or scum or whatnot, when that serves rather to obfuscate and obscure than to illuminate what's going on there.

 

[seventh bullet]

I'm talking about this particular gang of murdering scumbags. How would you like to describe them? Misunderstood?

Well, coley, for example, has misunderstood them, yes. But not in the way you've just implied about the person who has pointed that out. Obviously if you're seeking a more accurate understanding that might not be offensively ignorant then you're an apologist for their 'worldview' and actions.

 

[editor]

no, i would describe them as insurgents. i don't see what's to gain by describing them as vermin or scum or whatnot, when that serves rather to obfuscate and obscure than to illuminate what's going on there.

Insurgent: a person who rises in forcible opposition to lawful authority.

So what lawful authority did these unarmed students represent?

 

[Pickman's model]

Insurgent: a person who rises in forcible opposition to lawful authority.

So what lawful authority did these unarmed students represent?

 

[editor]

We'll leave it at then.

 

[Pickman's model]

We'll leave it at then.

yeh i think we better had

 

[ViolentPanda]

Anyway, wonder how many events like this can take place before a more major schism forms in Pakistani society? There's already a war going on to some degree but it's not a full blown civil war, is it? I'm pretty ignorant on Pakistan.

There's already a major schism in Pakistani society. One that's existed since the country was founded. It's a class schism. We talk about the 1% and the 99% in the west. In Pakistan the 0.1% rule - whether via military dictators or puppet politicians, and the 99.9% eat shit and get fed distractions such as religious fundamentalism.

 

[Pickman's model]

The Taliban, Daesh, et al, spring from a belief system originating in medieval times, most other religions seem have evolved to a greater or lesser degree but this one seems particularly infested with groupings determined to make sure it remains in the dark ages.

returning to this religious evolution bit, xian churches in london torture children. the catholic church no more than 150years ago declared the pope infallible in theological matters. and we all know about catholic and protestant child abuse scandals. i do not believe religions evolve. or, if they do, it's away from any original 'goodness'.

 

[YouSir]

returning to this religious evolution bit, xian churches in london torture children. the catholic church no more than 150years ago declared the pope infallible in theological matters. and we all know about catholic and protestant child abuse scandals. i do not believe religions evolve. or, if they do, it's away from any original 'goodness'.

I wouldn't say it was so coherent really. Some strands of some religions do 'evolve' in positive directions, other strands go in horrific ones. Quakers seem nice enough and certainly better than medieval Christian witch burners, but as you say, there are other strands that aren't much better than those types. Either way you can't view any religion(s) as a generic whole that's defined by it's worst (or best).

 

[Lurcio]

Its important to distinguish the Taliban (a tribal force) from Al Qaeda/ISIS - (literalists and nihilists from the Wahhabist Islamic tradition).

These attacks are more revenge for the operations being conducted by the Pakistani military (under US direction) in order to make the hinterlands between Afghanistan and Pakistan less lawless and welcoming to militants.

As always, religion is often caught up in the crossfire - when its local politics and 21st century imperialism that are triggering the violence.

I'm with Pickman on this!

 

[coley]

returning to this religious evolution bit, xian churches in london torture children. the catholic church no more than 150years ago declared the pope infallible in theological matters. and we all know about catholic and protestant child abuse scandals. i do not believe religions evolve. or, if they do, it's away from any original 'goodness'.

We also had the inquisition, the crusades etc, aye we all know how bliddy evil Christianity has been,but apart form the rapture loving loonies in the USA Christianity has lost any real meaning for most in the West,
I should have put 'societies evolve and the importance of religion diminishes in those societies' what we have in Islamic fundamentalism,is a determined faction who's avowed aim is keep religion front and foremost in Islamic society.
No tea and biccies served by guitar playing vicars for those lads.

 

[TomUS]

Its important to distinguish the Taliban (a tribal force) from Al Qaeda/ISIS - (literalists and nihilists from the Wahhabist Islamic tradition).

These attacks are more revenge for the operations being conducted by the Pakistani military (under US direction) in order to make the hinterlands between Afghanistan and Pakistan less lawless and welcoming to militants.

As always, religion is often caught up in the crossfire - when its local politics and 21st century imperialism that are triggering the violence.

Why distinguish between the Taliban & ISIS? They behave the same way and are both religious fundamentalist terror groups.

Revenge for actions by the Pakistan military? Really?.....by slaughtering a bunch of students that had nothing to do with it? And I doubt Pakistan needs any "direction" from the US to fight this theocratic gang.

And religion isn't caught in the crossfire. Extremist intolerant religious groups are the problem, not 21st century imperialism in this case.

 

[Lurcio]

Why distinguish between the Taliban & ISIS? They behave the same way and are both religious fundamentalist terror groups.

Revenge for actions by the Pakistan military? Really?.....by slaughtering a bunch of students that had nothing to do with it? And I doubt Pakistan needs any "direction" from the US to fight this theocratic gang.

And religion isn't caught in the crossfire. Extremist intolerant religious groups are the problem, not 21st century imperialism in this case.

Thats just it ... the Taliban are NOT like ISIS.
They don't think alike and do not behave the same way.
If your understanding of groups extends no further than spotting rags being worn on heads and some facial hair as sufficient proof of religious extremism!?

If you want to put the rest of the Muslim World into the same category as ISIS and re-run the Cold War - you are welcome to it.
But it would be the quickest way to ensure victory for ISIS and ensure every major city in the Western World becomes the front line of a world war.

 

[Pickman's model]

We also had the inquisition, the crusades etc, aye we all know how bliddy evil Christianity has been,but apart form the rapture loving loonies in the USA Christianity has lost any real meaning for most in the West,
I should have put 'societies evolve and the importance of religion diminishes in those societies' what we have in Islamic fundamentalism,is a determined faction who's avowed aim is keep religion front and foremost in Islamic society.
No tea and biccies served by guitar playing vicars for those lads.

don't talk such tosh. societies evolve? seriously? you really believe that after the last century? t best you mistake change for evolution.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why distinguish between the Taliban & ISIS? They behave the same way and are both religious fundamentalist terror groups.

Revenge for actions by the Pakistan military? Really?.....by slaughtering a bunch of students that had nothing to do with it? And I doubt Pakistan needs any "direction" from the US to fight this theocratic gang.

And religion isn't caught in the crossfire. Extremist intolerant religious groups are the problem, not 21st century imperialism in this case.

To use political terminology, you could say that the Taliban are reactionary conservatives seeking to perpetuate a set of minority cultural practices, whereas ISIS are a revolutionary conservative movement seeking to perpetuate a set of modern cultural practices dressed up as "the one true way of the prophet (PBUH)".
Thing is, if Islam hadn't been the lever for this kind of anti-state action in Pakistan, it'd be tribal affiliation or regionalism, which are always simmering somewhere near the surface in Pakistan. Islam is simply more convenient, not least because of the way Zia made accommodations to Islam during his dictatorship that shifted the constitution away from the modern and secular vision Jinnah had - of a Pakistan where people weren't compelled to their religion, legally or socially.

 

[ViolentPanda]

don't talk such tosh. societies evolve? seriously? you really believe that after the last century? t best you mistake change for evolution.

Societies can and do evolve, although nowhere near as freely and easily as the cultures that comprise societies do.
Unfortunately, when you have power relations that are as massively asymmetric as they are in most states, evolution is easy to stymie, just by claiming that doing thing a or thing b is in some way unwholesome, unpatriotic or even "socialist"

 

[newbie]

We also had the inquisition, the crusades etc, aye we all know how bliddy evil Christianity has been,but apart form the rapture loving loonies in the USA Christianity has lost any real meaning for most in the West,

that'd be the christianity that supports laws in African countries outlawing homosexuality and has just expelled US churches for not being bigots?

 

[coley]

that'd be the christianity that supports laws in African countries outlawing homosexuality and has just expelled US churches for not being bigots?

I'm talking about Christianity In Western Europe and it's increasing insignificance.

don't talk such tosh. societies evolve? seriously? you really believe that after the last century? t best you mistake change for evolution.

I've seen massive changes in my lifetime, I've watched society evolve ( or change if you prefer) into something much better than my parents and grandparents ever knew.
There is still massive room for improvement, but we don't jail gays any more or hang people or have backstreet abortionists and these changes and many others have come about largely because of education and the resulting marginalisation of organised religion and the sooner it happens in the rest of the world the better.

 

[newbie]

I'm talking about Christianity In Western Europe and it's increasing insignificance.

I largely agree with you about society evolving in our lifetimes, but part of that has included globalisation. The CofE isn't isolated, it's part of a worldwide federation that, as said, has just expelled US churches to placate bigots. And, tbh, religion may be insignificant where you are but it's serious around here, there are loads of churches, very well attended, lots of young people. I don't know but I presume there are differences between their beliefs and while I'd like to think most are anti-bigot, I'm not putting money on it.

All I'm saying is christianity is still dangerous, it's neither evolved nor withered away.

 

[coley]

I largely agree with you about society evolving in our lifetimes, but part of that has included globalisation. The CofE isn't isolated, it's part of a worldwide federation that, as said, has just expelled US churches to placate bigots. And, tbh, religion may be insignificant where you are but it's serious around here, there are loads of churches, very well attended, lots of young people. I don't know but I presume there are differences between their beliefs and while I'd like to think most are anti-bigot, I'm not putting money on it.

All I'm saying is christianity is still dangerous, it's neither evolved nor withered away.

I can only speak for my part of the world, UK and Europe, but here, Christianity is largely regarded as a comfortable relic, cherished in some quarters but without real power, as for the Anglicans trying to reconcile various countries to the home of Anglicanism, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm talking about Christianity In Western Europe and it's increasing insignificance.


I've seen massive changes in my lifetime, I've watched society evolve ( or change if you prefer) into something much better than my parents and grandparents ever knew.
There is still massive room for improvement, but we don't jail gays any more or hang people or have backstreet abortionists and these changes and many others have come about largely because of education and the resulting marginalisation of organised religion and the sooner it happens in the rest of the world the better.

'we' don't jail gays: but many other people do. the variables you describe do not explain societal evolution, ie progress, else they would have occurred earlier: education act 1870 v education act 1944 for example. education didn't get rid of eg slavery or gain eg votes for women. but more to the point how would you explain the barbarism of the most educated country in europe in the 1930s and 40s?

 

[Pickman's model]

I can only speak for my part of the world, UK and Europe, but here, Christianity is largely regarded as a comfortable relic, cherished in some quarters but without real power, as for the Anglicans trying to reconcile various countries to the home of Anglicanism, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic.

i would have thought the events of the last 25 years showed how wrong people were to write off religion. you may regard xianity with the benignity of a man watching a fire die down but you do so from the comfy if not complacent position of a white european. religion in many parts of the world much more important and we won't be unaffected by religious convulsions elsewhere.

 

[frogwoman]

I think in some parts of the US, Uganda, Central African Republic etc people would disagree that christianity is benign. and "religious nutters" here can lead to extremism elsewhere, eg the links between the anti-gay christian right in the US and policies such as the execution of gays in uganda