Taking the train: London -> Madrid

[teuchter]

Which makes air travel 10 times safer than it's closest rival, the bus, which is also safer than the train?

Doesn't sound right to me.

Mind you, I guess you don't often hear of bus passengers being killed do you?

That air travel should be safest on average per km isn't all that surprising when you think about it.

Whilst the plane is in the sky, there isn't too much that can go wrong especially if the plane is well maintained. There's generally nothing to crash into in the sky. In contrast, a train relies not only on the train itself being well maintained but also all of the infrastructure; the tracks, signalling, etc. And of course there is the risk of other people leaving stuff like cars on the tracks.

The most risky bits for a plane are takeoff and landing, and the longer the journey, the less significant these parts of the journey are. In other words it's not that much more risky to fly 5000 miles than it is to fly 5. Because most plane journeys are quite long, and therefore the average journey is long, they do well when measured per km.

It would be interesting to see how the figures stacked up if you were to compare a short-haul flight of say 300 miles with an equivalent journey by train. Then perhaps there would be less difference.

Also, those figures are from 2000 and probably based on statistics from the couple of decades before that. I would guess that the rise of cheapo airlines may mean that the average air journey length has dropped somewhat since then, as more people are flying on journeys which previously would have been undertaken by other modes of transport.

It does seem slightly surprising that the bus should be slightly safer, but then again most bus travel is conducted at a fairly low speed. It's possible that if trains travelled at the same average speed as buses, they would win out.

 

[teuchter]

i think my return journey to barcelona cost about £150. this was over half term, so the flights were about £100 anyway.

For longer trips where you want to visit several destinations, Interrail passes are well worth considering too. (Although you have to factor in the cost of supplements for high speed trains and stuff which vary from country to country.)

I'd guess that if you wanted to visit several different European countries over a period of two weeks or more, the train could well work out cheaper than the plane if you get a railpass.

It all depends on whether you enjoy travelling for the sake of it, really.

 

[Spymaster]

I usually find the experience of the train journey to be part of my holiday, while for planes it's the dull bit I have to get through before my holiday starts.

I understand this. Horses for courses and all that ...

Personally, unless we're talking Orient Express, I've no particular desire to include train travel as part of any holiday I'd take, and your OP is about business travel, not holiday. Different requirements entirely.

 

[zoltan]

I usually find the experience of the train journey to be part of my holiday, while for planes it's the dull bit I have to get through before my holiday starts.

we have misplaced the thrill of getting to a desination and replaced it with being at the destination - I try to get in a bit of Train on all my journeys now -theres more romance with a train

last year I had to get to bari in italy for game - could have gone ryanair to ancona or Pescara, but chose to fly to belgrade/ sleeper Train to Podgorica/ detour thro Albania / overnight Ferry to Bari & only then did we take the option of the ryanir flight home

the game was relagated to an incidental event in the whole trip

 

[Spymaster]

It does seem slightly surprising that the bus should be slightly safer, but then again most bus travel is conducted at a fairly low speed. It's possible that if trains travelled at the same average speed as buses, they would win out.

Yeah, this.

It's pretty obvious that plane journeys are going to be safer than other forms per km because of the distances involved but the bus/train thing I found interesting.

Also these figures are for deaths/km not injuries. Very few bus deaths because of the lower speeds, as you say. Given that plane crashes are very often totally fatal and train wrecks often result in a number of fatalities I suppose it's not that strange.

 

[Crispy]

Oh, and by 2012, you'll be able to take a TGV direct to Barcelona from Paris 5:30h travel time. Not too shabby at all.

 

[editor]

last year I had to get to bari in italy for game - could have gone ryanair to ancona or Pescara, but chose to fly to belgrade/ sleeper Train to Podgorica/ detour thro Albania / overnight Ferry to Bari & only then did we take the option of the ryanir flight home

When you travel across Europe on the train you get a real flavour of the countries you're going through - something that's obviously completely missing when you fly direct.

We got the train to Prague once and waking up to find the train running alongside the Rhine at dawn was one of the highlights of the entire holiday.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

I took that train a couple of years ago and saw people skating on the frozen Vistula...

 

[ethel]

Oh, and by 2012, you'll be able to take a TGV direct to Barcelona from Paris 5:30h travel time. Not too shabby at all.

i can't wait for this

 

[Spymaster]

As an aside, do those of you who eschew flying tend only to holiday domestically or in Europe?

 

[Crispy]

As an aside, do those of you who eschew flying tend only to holiday domestically or in Europe?

Yep. Maybe fly once every few years (that's the idea)

 

[bigbry]

Is this true btw?

I thought planes were the safest form of travel. Not sure why though.

It depends what statistics you are using and I'm not talking about fiddling the figures but what units you are using.

Deaths per passenger mile - IIRC (can't be arsed to look it up) airplanes are the safest - lots of people on very long journeys

Deaths per passenger - trains safest (lots of passengers - not many deaths)

It's something like that but I'm in work and had better do something as my lunch is just finishing.

 

[Roadkill]

It depends what statistics you are using and I'm not talking about fiddling the figures but what units you are using.

Deaths per passenger mile - IIRC (can't be arsed to look it up) airplanes are the safest - lots of people on very long journeys

Deaths per passenger - trains safest (lots of passengers - not many deaths)

Yes, that's right. Aeroplanes do well in the casualties per passenger-mile figure because the average 'plane journey is so much longer than the average trip by land transport, but in terms of deaths per passenger-journey trains are safer.

 

[teuchter]

As an aside, do those of you who eschew flying tend only to holiday domestically or in Europe?

Not exclusively but mostly, yes.

There is so much to see in Europe that it's silly to ignore it.

The last time I went outside Europe it was to Japan and on the outward journey I did most of the mileage by train. I did fly back though.

If it weren't for the fact that I get seasick I'd be well up for travelling to places by container ship.

 

[bigbry]

Fuck. *How* dangerous are motorbikes?!

I only have to think back to my youth and how many of my 'acquantancies' set off on their motorbikes and finished their journeys in a wooden box. At a time when, because of your age, you feel immortal and invincible, to lose eight people, who you played football with or went to school with or knew through mutual friends, was a lot of people

 

[stat]

If it weren't for the fact that I get seasick I'd be well up for travelling to places by container ship.

sadly, it's quite pricey - about $100 a night, iirc. Still, if your destination is somewhere like South America it may not be so massively far above the price of a flight...

would be pretty cool

 

[Spymaster]

If it weren't for the fact that I get seasick I'd be well up for travelling to places by container ship.

Nutter.

I'd consider that similar to being stuck in prison for the duration.

 

[Roadkill]

Crossing the Atlantic by ship is an ambition of mine.

 

[Crispy]

If you're going to sail, sail in comfort, I say!

 

[Spymaster]

If you're going to sail, don't, I say.

Mrs Spy and I did an Alaskan cruise a few years ago.

Never again.

 

[Crispy]

Alaska
Cruise
?

Carribean
Cruise

Now you're cooking with rum!

 

[T & P]

If editor had lots of time he could also consider a ferry to Bilbao or Santander then the train to Madrid.

Putting the car into the ferry costs exhorbitant amounts but it should be more reasonable for foot passengers. Lots of good things to see and eat in the Basque Country and Cantabria.

Not so good as far as the environment goes I suspect... shipping is supposed to be as bad as air if not worse.

 

[Cobbles]

I only have to think back to my youth and how many of my 'acquantancies' set off on their motorbikes and finished their journeys in a wooden box. At a time when, because of your age, you feel immortal and invincible, to lose eight people, who you played football with or went to school with or knew through mutual friends, was a lot of people

there's also the "born again biker" phenomenon. The last time I roed a bike regularly it was a BMW R80 - it can't have been more than 60 or 70 BHP - if I went out and hopped onto a Suziki 650 Bandit, that's knocking out 85 BHP.

With loads of tempting hardware churning out 100-150+ BHP, it's dead easy to go out and buy something that's capable of getting you into trouble much faster than a bike from 20/30 years ago - apart from which born again biker reflexes ain't what they used to be......

 

[teuchter]

Nutter.

I'd consider that similar to being stuck in prison for the duration.

Possibly you would consider spending 7 nights in a row on a train to be similarly unappealing, and yet this is something I've done and enjoyed.

I can understand why it wouldn't be for everyone though.

 

[teuchter]

Not so good as far as the environment goes I suspect... shipping is supposed to be as bad as air if not worse.

I don't think this is true.

Shipping is many, many more times more energy efficient than air transport - in fact I think it's the most efficient form of transport we've got per tonne/mile.

I think the issue is more to do with the fact that emissions from ships are not covered by Kyoto and there has not been as much improvement in efficiency as there could have been. Shipping contributes a large proportion of global CO2 but this is only because of the huge volumes of goods transported by sea compared to air.




http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/mar/03/travelsenvironmentalimpact.transportintheuk

 

[T & P]

I don't think this is true.

Shipping is many, many more times more energy efficient than air transport - in fact I think it's the most efficient form of transport we've got per tonne/mile.

I think the issue is more to do with the fact that emissions from ships are not covered by Kyoto and there has not been as much improvement in efficiency as there could have been. Shipping contributes a large proportion of global CO2 but this is only because of the huge volumes of goods transported by sea compared to air.




http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/mar/03/travelsenvironmentalimpact.transportintheuk

Cheers, I stand corrected. I had previously believed people were talking about a direct journey and/or mile comparison between the two.

 

[bigbry]

Cheers, I stand corrected. I had previously believed people were talking about a direct journey and/or mile comparison between the two.

It's probably true that a ship/boat puts out far more emissions per trip than an aeroplane 'cos it's quite a long journey compared to a few hours flying but the ship carries lots more goods - think of a container ship then imagine how many jumbo jets would be required to move that load. Dozens and dozens of them.

 

[Isambard]

And there are new EU regs due in soon for the emissions of commercial shipping IIRC.

It's a bit pedestrian (sorry for the pun) but there was the first of a three part series of Cardiff to Taiwan by train in the Gridauna today.