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Sykes-Picot

lets go back to your opening statement and look at how utterly facile it is," It's just that when Sykes-Picot is mentioned it always feels to me anyway like a justification... like "it wuz fucked anyway when I got here in ma AC-130 Gunship init, becoz Sykes-Picot or whatever".

those proposing armed intervention be it in Iraq 2003 or libya or even syria, tend to ignore sykes-picot because it does not fit the rhetoric of the war on terror/clash of civilizations/bringers of democracy rhetoric. In their view all that was necessary was to rejig a few territorial boundries,perhaps an autonomous region or two and Mission Acomplaced.(sic)

If you ignore the Sykes-picot you are failing to understand why the people of the region are mistrustful of western arbitration in their territorial disputes and why in times of instability they look towards strong men leaders to protect them, initially the sunni of mosul greeted ISIS as liberators
 
lets go back to your opening statement and look at how utterly facile it is," It's just that when Sykes-Picot is mentioned it always feels to me anyway like a justification... like "it wuz fucked anyway when I got here in ma AC-130 Gunship init, becoz Sykes-Picot or whatever".

those proposing armed intervention be it in Iraq 2003 or libya or even syria, tend to ignore sykes-picot because it does not fit the rhetoric of the war on terror/clash of civilizations/bringers of democracy rhetoric. In their view all that was necessary was to rejig a few territorial boundries,perhaps an autonomous region or two and Mission Acomplaced.(sic)

If you ignore the Sykes-picot you are failing to understand why the people of the region are mistrustful of western arbitration in their territorial disputes and why in times of instability they look towards strong men leaders to protect them, initially the sunni of mosul greeted ISIS as liberators

Once the damage is done, those who supported the armed interventions (from what I have often seen) tend to then justify further by shrugging 'helplessly', mutter something about "fucked anyway" as I said in your quote... and then next-level it by bringing up Sykes-Picot to justify the rejig they then propose next. Sykes-Picot is something they lick their lips and mutter about when it's time to take it to Eleven, as if the New Look Middle East they have in mind is some sort of inevitable correction to what things would have been if it hadn't been for that previous generation of damned interventionists.

That's what it looks like to me anyway, but I'm not here to insult anyone and have found your insights interesting. Last weeks solutions become yesterdays problems become today's justifications to attempt tomorrows solutions... on and on it seems to go ("solutions" that is to the underlying question of how to continue to dominate the area), the same shit day after day; "intervention becoz-".

Perhaps the outside parties concerned just want to consume some of that local history, after all the region seems to produce so much.
 
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It's had to tell because of the writing, the historical errors and the paranoia, but is he basically trying to repeat what this very interesting two part piece argues?

'Lines Drawn on an Empty Map': Iraq’s Borders and the Legend of the Artificial State (Part 1)

More rare were critiques of the Sykes-Picot narrative itself or the broader artificial state narrative of which it is one strand. There were some notable exceptions, including a brilliant piece by Daniel Neep arguing that the fascination of pundits everywhere with how a better map of the region might be created is “no more than a fantasy concocted from a phantasm, an illusion distilled from the fragments of a half-remembered dream.”[2] But for the most part, the fragments of the half-remembered dream held sway. Indeed, few even bothered questioning the claim that the border IS was challenging had in fact been created by the 1916 Sykes-Picot Agreement. This near-consensus was striking not only because more accurate information was available for anyone who chose to search for it, but also because it was available right at the top of most of the commentaries themselves, in the form of the Sykes-Picot maps soberly displayed above article after article, as if those images actually served to illustrate the claims at hand. That the Sykes-Picot map does not look very much like the present-day map of the region rarely seemed to warrant explanation. In fact, it can be argued fairly easily that the boundaries of the region IS currently controls look more like Sykes-Picot than does the internationally recognized border between Iraq and Syria. I will return to this point.

...

The discourse of Iraq as an artificial state—an irrational amalgam of heterogeneous peoples—emerged in the 1920s, as I will show in Part 2 of this article. It was originally a colonial narrative, invoked to argue that Iraq was not yet coherent enough to govern itself, contrary to the claims of Iraqi nationalists, and that it must therefore be governed by Britain. That it later also became a nationalist narrative—especially an Arab nationalist narrative—may help to explain its persistence. In the wake of the US invasions of 1991 and 2003, it was dusted off and trotted out in particularly virulent ways by the pro-war camp and their later apologists. After all, what harm had been done in destroying a country that had never authentically existed in the first place?


'Lines Drawn on an Empty Map': Iraq’s Borders and the Legend of the Artificial State (Part 2)

What I have also been suggesting is that the narrative of Iraq as an artificial state emerged out of the very historical conflicts and processes it was then retrospectively deployed to explain, as well as to explain away. Rather than historicize the narrative, by exploring its emergence in the years after World War I, scholars and countless other commentators have used and re-used it to empty Iraq of history.
 
It's had to tell because of the writing, the historical errors and the paranoia, but is he basically trying to repeat what this very interesting two part piece argues?

'Lines Drawn on an Empty Map': Iraq’s Borders and the Legend of the Artificial State (Part 1)



...




'Lines Drawn on an Empty Map': Iraq’s Borders and the Legend of the Artificial State (Part 2)

Excellent peice, very interesting... certainly castes light on the whiff of fish about the Sykes-Picot thing that made me want to start this thread, glad to see someone who knows the history of the region to such depth explain precisely why and where the fishfingers have been hidden in this thing...

Fortunately for Iraqis, the small cohort of British officials who argued after the war that the new state borders should be based on ethnosectarian ones lost the battle; Iraq therefore witnessed no major projects of ethnic cleansing in the 1920s. As I have suggested, many factors contributed to this outcome, including Iraqi nationalist demands, British imperial interests, and the actions of Iraq’s neighbors. Critics of the argument also frequently pointed out the extreme difficulty of implementing an ethnosectarian vision in this region. Indeed, it was this vision that drew its logic from the fantasy of an empty map, or a map filled with empty homogeneous space: empty of history; of claims to territory and other resources; of neighbors speaking different languages; of multiethnic villages and virtually any conceivable city; of existing provincial and international borders; of previously concluded treaties and agreements; of local and international laws; even of mountains, rivers, deserts, and oil deposits. Nothing but empty space and fixed ethnosectarian identities.

It reminds me of the Year Zero mentality in a way, where all that has gone before gets wiped away as somehow flawed and inpure so things can be started again, that's what invoking Sykes-Picot amounts to... even though the idea that Sykes-Picot made the borders there is itself (according to the article) a fantasy.

So what's your beef with it, why have you said that it's historically innacurate and paranoid?
 
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the article BA posted paints possibly too rosy a picture of the british mandate in the 20's here what was going on under the surface
the corrupt and repressive Hashemite monarchy was British colonialism's legacy to the people of Iraq. At the end of the First World War the first king, Faisal, had briefly created an Arab kingdom centred on Damascus, before being ejected by French troops. British advisers now lobbied for him to be offered the throne of Iraq. Creating the new Iraqi monarchy proved to be a difficult task. It took thousands of British troops and £40 million to suppress a huge uprising in 1920. Unrest and nationalist agitation continued for months afterwards.

A combination of repression and bribery eventually secured Faisal's place on the throne. Iraq gained nominal independence in 1932 and a seat in the League of Nations. In reality little changed: British advisers remained firmly in power behind the scenes, and a treaty between the two governments maintained Britain's military domination of Iraq.16 It was the negotiations over the extension of this treaty which provided the spark for a wave of mass protests across Iraq in 1948.

Even in the 1920s the social base of support for the Iraqi monarchy had been very thin. By the 1940s this layer was even more isolated, as new social forces, such as the growing working class, the urban poor and the new middle class, combined in protest at its continued domination. The government's usual answer was increased repression. Parties were banned, strikers shot down, and Communists executed in public. As early as 1946 even the British embassy was wringing its hands in despair. A report from the chancery in Baghdad to the Foreign Office noted: 'With the old gang in power this country cannot hope to progress very far'.

A growing sense of social polarisation added to the tension. The cost of basic goods sky-rocketed during the 1940s, and although wages rose as the war economy expanded, they could not keep pace with the cost of living.18 With the end of the war, jobs dependent on the British army evaporated, adding thousands to the ranks of the unemployed when prices and rents remained ruinously high. War profiteering combined with an oil boom allowed a thin layer of the elite to indulge in conspicuous consumption. The arrogance of the rich sharpened the anger of the nationalist demonstrations. In the minds of many Iraqis, the interests of their own ruling class were indistinguishable from the interests of British imperialism.

Moreover, foreign capitalists were not the only people who were getting rich. Large landowners dominated the small local ruling class. A boom in agricultural production increased the wealth and power of this tiny handful. In an effort to provide a social base for their imported monarchy, British colonial officials had played an important role in consolidating the power of this class. Changes to the property laws during the 1920s made tribal sheikhs' and politicians' fortunes overnight. The landlords had every interest in continuing to work with the colonial powers to maintain their domination of the Iraqi economy. As Phebe Marr explains: 'Iraq [was] highly dependent upon the export of two primary products--oil and agricultural products--the one controlled by foreign interests and the other by a group of wealthy landlords'.

Meanwhile industrialisation, even on a small scale, pulled people out of the villages into the great urban centres. Baghdad's population doubled in size between 1922 and 1946. However, many migrants did not find the work they were looking for. Instead they swelled the growing ranks of the urban poor and unemployed. 'Sarifahs'--mud-walled houses thatched with reed matting--sprang up on the outskirts of Baghdad to absorb the newcomers, who featured prominently in the crowd scenes of the crisis.21

However, despite the bankruptcy of the monarchy, none of Iraq's nationalist opposition parties developed a mass membership while nationalist leaders of an earlier generation often played a leading role in the repressive governments of the period.22 In fact, as in Egypt in the same period, the nationalist movement moved quickly leftwards, drawing its leaders from precisely those new social groups which had no stake in the existing system. Iraq's political future was being decided at the level of the street, where the parliamentary parties had little influence.

Majid Khadduri sums up neatly the dilemma of the establishment after the fall of Salih Jabr's government in 1948. The leaders of the parliamentary opposition parties:


  • ...seem[ed] to have co-operated only to force the Jabr government to resign, but were wholly unprepared to follow up their victory and achieve power. Their weakness became the more apparent when the parties appealed to the mob (presumed to have been under their control) to stop street demonstrations; the mob would not listen to them

Daring for victory: Iraq in revolution 1946-1959

this is a good article on Attaturk and Severes
Forget Sykes-Picot. It’s the Treaty of Sèvres That Explains the Modern Middle East.

ut the legacy of Sèvres extends well beyond Turkey, which is precisely why we should include this treaty alongside Sykes-Picot in our history of the Middle East. It will help us challenge the widespread notion that the region’s problems all began with Europeans drawing borders on a blank map.

There’s no doubt that Europeans were happy to create borders that conformed to their own interests whenever they could get away with it. But the failure of Sèvres proves that that sometimes they couldn’t. When European statesmen tried to redraw the map of Anatolia, their efforts were forcefully defeated. In the Middle East, by contrast, Europeans succeeded inimposing borders because they had the military power to prevail over the people resisting them. Had the Syrian nationalist Yusuf al-‘Azma, another mustachioed Ottoman army officer, replicated Ataturk’s military success and defeated the French at the Battle of Maysalun, European plans for the Levant would have gone the way of Sèvres.

Would different borders have made the Middle East more stable, or perhaps less prone to sectarian violence? Not necessarily. But looking at history through the lens of the Sèvres treaty suggests a deeper point about the cause-and-effect relationship between European-drawn borders and Middle Eastern instability: the regions that ended up with borders imposed by Europe tended to be those already too weak or disorganized to successfully resist colonial occupation. Turkey didn’t become wealthier and more democratic than Syria or Iraq because it had the good fortune to get the right borders. Rather, the factors that enabled Turkey to defy European plans and draw its own borders — including an army and economic infrastructure inherited from the Ottoman empire — were some of the same ones that enabled Turkey to build a strong, centralized, European-style nation-state.

on a slightly different note heres a good article written about india on moving beyond partition, india like turkey had a strong ecconomic and civil service infrastructure to underpin it
Flesh and Blood: Nation-Building in India
However, one need only consider the ongoing “nation-building” along the Islamic arc, from North Africa to West Asia, to realize the significance of secular democratic India. Even with the partition and creation of separate Muslim homelands in Pakistan and later Bangladesh, more Muslims are present in India (176 million) than any other country save Indonesia. There are more Muslims living in the subcontinent than the entire Middle East and North Africa combined. With its recent announcement of plans to expand in South Asia, al-Qaeda understands the stakes in India and the challenge of its pluralism to radical Islam.

For India to succeed, citizens of all shapes and sizes must continue to learn to share the land, to give to the other one’s flesh and blood. The new government has indicated that economic reform, down to the village level, is taking priority in the agenda. With success, India can serve as a critical alternative to the exclusive and violent nationalism that currently threatens international peace and security.
 
Fortunately for Iraqis, the small cohort of British officials who argued after the war that the new state borders should be based on ethnosectarian ones lost the battle; Iraq therefore witnessed no major projects of ethnic cleansing in the 1920s. As I have suggested, many factors contributed to this outcome, including Iraqi nationalist demands, British imperial interests, and the actions of Iraq’s neighbors. Critics of the argument also frequently pointed out the extreme difficulty of implementing an ethnosectarian vision in this region. Indeed, it was this vision that drew its logic from the fantasy of an empty map, or a map filled with empty homogeneous space: empty of history; of claims to territory and other resources; of neighbors speaking different languages; of multiethnic villages and virtually any conceivable city; of existing provincial and international borders; of previously concluded treaties and agreements; of local and international laws; even of mountains, rivers, deserts, and oil deposits. Nothing but empty space and fixed ethnosectarian identities.

i think both you and the author are both way to fixated on lines on a map,sykes piccot didnt just set lines on a map it also set up a system of economic exploitations and dependencies that were resisted at the time and those that agitated for ecconomic reform were brutally suppressed by interior ministry police in the decades to come.

ethnic cleansing isn't the only form of ethnosectarianism, or dominance of one ethnic group over another for instance despite the kurds and Shia making up a substantial part of the Iraqi population Faisels ministry had just 5 shia ministers and bearly a couple of kurds out of 56 none of whom held key ministries, look at the history of Stormont and see where such one sided ecconomic dominance leads

Did Ignoring the ecconomic ramifications of S-P make it more or less likely that the post-sadamm government would be able to contain a sectarian backlash? bear in mind that even before a single iraqi had cast a single vote the american interim governor had sold off the docks,and public utillities,renegotiated oil concessions and saddled the incoming administration with billions of private security debt all to western multi-nationals Would it make it more or less likely that the new govt would be seen as yet another illegitimate puppet?
a King Faisel 2?
 
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The solutions of today are the problems of tomorrow, regardless of who "taps out" of what.

Maybe Russia's "communism" was a waste, in fact it probably was, but I don't think alternate histories that posit a Russian convergence on Western norms are credible. At best, it was going to be something like Turkey under Ataturk, at worst it was going to be something like Imperial Japan.

Alternate histories: always fascinating.

A modern aircraft carrier is thrown back in time to 1941 near Hawaii, just hours before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

The Final Countdown (1980) - IMDb

Just imagine: what if? :eek:
 
That was such a tease of a movie their just about to launch an all out strike on the ijn and the "magic cloud"
Brings them back to the present :mad:
 
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