SWP member Expelled

[GarfieldLeChat]

By posting on yet another swp thread?

i didn't create it love i'm merely saying dull secterain poltics thread particually by wank fest bollitics nonsense like StupidWankersParty is like mildew unless it's treated straight away it spreads quickly and infects everything rendering it usless and rotten....

 

[bolshiebhoy]

unless it's treated straight away it spreads quickly and infects everything

At the risk of sounding like Adam Smith there is something of a free market in threads. The only ones that prosper are the ones that punters want to post on. The market in swp related threads ain't kept alive by swp members / supporters on here.

 

[Das Uberdog]

huh

jesus you conceited prick....

no i'm say that tis is eminenatly dull for the billion or so people not involved in your 4 person circle jerk tossathon this isn't the SWP boards wh the bloody hell would we want to know about your lastest atom bomb like cacade theory split...

TIme in time out we have fought against the monopoliseation by the SWP of these politics boards not becuase we mighten agree with the acutal content but becuase you lot are so fucking dull and lifeless and bloody sectarian and every fucking thing you touch turns to shit...

now really send a fucking email fuck it considering the level of dullness and insignificane the swp has in the REAL world fucking use a carrier pidgeon and fuck off with this shit...

you bucnh of oversized uni wiberals...

Again, moron - it wasn't the SWP who started this thread. You miss the point entirely. I can see I'm going to have to break down the post you obviously thought you'd replied to into understandable segments...

Are you accusing the SWP of over publicising this incident as though we have delusions of self importance,

Setting up the strawman...

when it was infact a blindly moronic sectarian nutjob who started the topic in the first place?

Just to knock it down.

Or do you too simply resent the fact than when criticisms of SWP policy or conduct are made SWP members will try to defend their organisation's stance?

Leaving you with the obvious conclusion...

How can I be blamed for a discussion about the SWP when in fact it wasn't me who started it, and I obviously wasn't the only person to initiate interest in the subject seeing as all my posts have been responses...

Fucking idiot.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Uberdog care to expand on this? What areas of party policy have been too influenced by this over-obsession with recruitment? Cause in their rush to dismiss you as a hack everyone seems to have let this little oppositional nugget slide.

I think that there's far too much pressure on organiser's to recruit people. Every other week, my last organiser Dan was called up by Head Office blagging him about recruitment figures and paper sales. We have an entire recuritment section of the Party who's seemingly only interest in anything political is trying to bump up membership figures, and I feel that our events such as Marxism (at which I was on the recruitment team last year) are blighted by irritating pleas to join the party (outside every meeting).

I have plenty gripes with the SWP - I think it's a very impersonal organisation alot of the time, and I think that we have a culture which focuses too much upon selling papers and signing up new recruits rather than personally developing the members which we do have. I personally feel that I have, on an individual and emotional level gained tremendously from membership in the SWP. It's those experiences which make me turn up to party meetings, sell the paper and those experiences which I'd like to share with other new and old members - rather than simply pushing to make ourselves look good.

I also feel that there is a culture of intolerance of open debate amongst the higher-ranking and senior party members. A culture in which criticism of policy is seen as an attack rather than an attempt to help... I remember having a "discussion" with Judith Orr when she came up the Preston to give a lecture on Women's Lib about Respect's stance on the Racial and Religious Hatred bill, in which the very fact that I'd brought the subject up lead her to become intolerant and really, downright rude.

But of course the pros outweigh the cons in my opinion - otherwise I wouldn't still be in. Pros being activity, in my opinion the best theory and practice of theory and what I see as the most progressive position on pretty much any social issue.

 

[chilango]

PPS - Welse language protests? You might as well accuse me of not taking into account the Countryside Alliance protests... As though it wasn't a blatantly Plaid Cymru issue from the start...


PPPPS - so the only example we can come up with are the Poll Tax protests? Out of every national campaign in the last 15 years?

Yeah. You might not like it but the CA protests were significant, and there is a class element to it. But as the Left didn`t give damn, snooty landowners got to call the shots...

Your point about Welsh language protests is?

They were radical and successful. You had no involvement so you dismiss them.

just the poll tax?

what about anti-roads?

anti-gm?

anti-opencast?

...but of course they all happenned before the SWP got "into" environmentalism.

 

[mutley]

Now DU has shown such dissident swp behaviour, what's the betting everyone starts being polite...

 

[cockneyrebel]

Now DU has shown such dissident swp behaviour, what's the betting everyone starts being polite...

Not at all, and as it goes I don't think I was ever being rude. As it goes I agree with DU that a fair amount of the criticism of the SWP on here is a bit mindless and I also think he's more open minded about making criticisms of the SWP than some other SWP members have been on here. But what, IMO, he doesn't realise is that the flaws he's talking about flow from the politics.

The SWP leadership isn't intolerant of debate (including banning organised opposition for 9 months of the year), obsessed with recruitment and not taking political education of new members seriously because of the individual personalities of CC members but because of the centrist politics of the SWP. The constant zig zag on positions (including the big lurch to the right in recent years), means that the CC has to keep a tight beureaucratic grip and that any criticism is seen as an attack rather than constructive debate.

And I don't think anyone thinks there will be an immenent demise of the SWP. But any honest SWPer will admit that SWP membership has shrunk over the last few years (down to about 1500-2000 active members) and that there is a lot of discontent in the SWP about RESPECT (just as there is a fair amount of discontent in the SP over the CNWP and even the PCS stuff).

I'm not going to put up the pretence of being polite around here when others are hiding what are clearly childish and rudimentary insults disguised in a phony banner of 'moderacy' and 'constructive criticism'.

UD I'm not concerned about your social life as such or saying you should pretend to be polite. I'm asking what you get out of your angry posts. Do you think you'll change anyones minds on here? Of course not. And it just seems to wind you up and make you pissed off. Considering U75 isn't exactly the heart beat of working class struggle, why put yourself through the grief?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I did indeed read that SW at the time said the arrival of the troops would 'provide a breathing space' for catholics - not quite welcoming them in as FG implies, but still pretty crap.

The full sentence was "The breathing space provided by the presence of British troops is short but vital", which on any fair reading does welcome the arrival of British troops but to be fair, only in a very limited way. It was a mistake grounded in the SWP's long tendency to echo feelings on the ground amongst more radical elements in the Catholic community rather than a slide into "pro-imperialism" or whatever it is their more left nationalist than thou critics claim. The troops were actually seen by most in the ghettos as providing a "breathing space" and the SWP just reflected that.

By the way, the issue of Militant at the time points out that the support by some Civil Rights movement leaders for the arrival of troops would "turn to vinegar in their mouths" and points out that the role of British troops would be to protect British interests rather than to protect either Catholics or the Civil Rights movement.

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Although they (the Millies) did and do have crap positions on the Hungers Strikes, sectarian marches, the republican struggle and most importantly the very question of a 32 county workers republic. I spent too long being called a left nationalist by Millies for being in the irish swp not to laugh at the suggestion that the swp is pro-imperialist.

It is an acknowledged truth, not least by the leaders of the IS/SWP themselves that the position of Socialist Worker when the troops went to Ireland was completely wrong. To state that fact is not to say that the SWP are 'pro-imperialist'.

 

[Geoff Collier]

It is an acknowledged truth, not least by the leaders of the IS/SWP themselves that the position of Socialist Worker when the troops went to Ireland was completely wrong. To state that fact is not to say that the SWP are 'pro-imperialist'.

Which leaders have acknowledged this? Those at the time like John Palmer? He was defending it only recently. Or the current leaders?

 

[bolshiebhoy]

Now DU has shown such dissident swp behaviour, what's the betting everyone starts being polite...

In the old days it would have been a reason for the assault to deepen until they'd hounded Uberdog into leaving entirely. But now that the prime culprits have gone elsewhere...

 

[Pigeon]

Ultimately it was Bin Laden that drove Steve out of politics, not Ger.

Utter utter bullshit.

If it was anything it was his victimisation by the management of the Fire Brigade, a disgraceful piece of scapegoating which the Birmingham left- led by Gerbil and his cronies- utterly failed to offer any support Steve around for purely sectarian reasons.

 

[mutley]

Utter utter bullshit.

If it was anything it was his victimisation by the management of the Fire Brigade, a disgraceful piece of scapegoating which the Birmingham left- led by Gerbil and his cronies- utterly failed to offer any support Steve around for purely sectarian reasons.

Bollocks.

When Steve got victimised the SWP offered to get a leaflet (under whatever heading) into every station in Brum. Steve said no, because he made the classic mistake of listening to his lawyer who advised (like they always do in these situations) to keep quiet and play it by the book. Trouble is it's the bosses book.
Swp members (including me) then turned out everyone we could to whatever lobbies took place in support of Steve.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

<snip>.

look dick head get it through your thick head no one fucking cares fuck off you dull leftie twat...

really your fucking politics is that of old men with strokie beards that is well pas t being relvant to todays youth not one of you leftie pricks can actually enaguage with otu resorting to tired out of date solgans and not one of you has EVER done anything practical for a local community you are the political equiverlent of jehovas witnesses feeling the need to convert all to your line of reasoning and not one of you has the capabilty or logic to question anything you do becuase of the level of dogma you have enshrined yourselves in fuck me you're like fundamentalist commies... praying to the great allah of stalin ... no wonder you ge ton so fucking well with the muslim council you mentalities are fucking identical.... at all cost the faith must be preserved...

fucking nutjobs...

no sod of you your boring staid own fucking forums and sto posting this boring shit here...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

At the risk of sounding like Adam Smith there is something of a free market in threads. The only ones that prosper are the ones that punters want to post on. The market in swp related threads ain't kept alive by swp members / supporters on here.

which is a good thing... but really this is the kind of bollitics which died as scragil left power...

 

[mutley]

look dick head get it through your thick head no one fucking cares fuck off you dull leftie twat...

really your fucking politics is that of old men with strokie beards that is well pas t being relvant to todays youth not one of you leftie pricks can actually enaguage with otu resorting to tired out of date solgans and not one of you has EVER done anything practical for a local community you are the political equiverlent of jehovas witnesses feeling the need to convert all to your line of reasoning and not one of you has the capabilty or logic to question anything you do becuase of the level of dogma you have enshrined yourselves in fuck me you're like fundamentalist commies... praying to the great allah of stalin ... no wonder you ge ton so fucking well with the muslim council you mentalities are fucking identical.... at all cost the faith must be preserved...

fucking nutjobs...

no sod of you your boring staid own fucking forums and sto posting this boring shit here...

What is a strokie beard?

And is your spelling so deranged because you are a self proclaimed global hyperfucker?

Would you like to lie down?

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

What is a strokie beard?

And is your spelling so deranged because you are a self proclaimed global hyperfucker?

Would you like to lie down?

hmmm shall i respond to the stupid dog or merely kick you ...

intresting that you pick up on one word you don't know and are too humourless to work out and spelling yet can make no viable claims as to the points raised...

good one..

btw pinko dyslexics can't spell it's a faucte we have... ok you understand i assume what a stroke is therefore can you apply the the logic to a strokie beard... and an old man stroking his beard... and the visual imagery it pertainst to... no though not dullard pinkos...

 

[mutley]

hmmm shall i respond to the stupid dog or merely kick you ...

intresting that you pick up on one word you don't know and are too humourless to work out and spelling yet can make no viable claims as to the points raised...

good one..

btw pinko dyslexics can't spell it's a faucte we have... ok you understand i assume what a stroke is therefore can you apply the the logic to a strokie beard... and an old man stroking his beard... and the visual imagery it pertainst to... no though not dullard pinkos...

Well I wouldn't say there were many 'points raised'.. it was basically 'swp are a bunch of stalinist-islamist tossers who should fuck off and die now with nobs on..' which I wouldn't call a 'point' that needs a response..

Just wanted to check that 'strokie' meant what you explained, it could have been another typo.

 

[Das Uberdog]

My God, Garfield's 'Strokie Beard' post took me quite by surprise - lmao. I did actually laugh out loud. For the record, I turned 17 in November last year and have most certainly done lots of work in and around my local community, including (almost) unionising the kitchen where I wash pots every night, amongst staff of a similar age.

Regardless, there's really not much to respond to - as already stated. Just to re-iterate the point I made earlier to Garfield which he failed to respond to;

"moron".

In this instance, I also believe that he should be clinically referred to a pyschologist of some sorts so that we can legitimately term him a moron medically as well, the case is so severe.

 

[JHE]

For the record, I... have most certainly done lots of work in and around my local community, including (almost) unionising the kitchen where I wash pots every night...

Good stuff, Doggy.

John & Lindsey are looking for keen washers to join the Social Work rota at Belmarsh. Don't be shy.

[email protected]

 

[Das Uberdog]

I'd find you amusing if you weren't such an arse.

 

[Pigeon]

Bollocks.

When Steve got victimised the SWP offered to get a leaflet (under whatever heading) into every station in Brum. Steve said no, because he made the classic mistake of listening to his lawyer who advised (like they always do in these situations) to keep quiet and play it by the book. Trouble is it's the bosses book.
Swp members (including me) then turned out everyone we could to whatever lobbies took place in support of Steve.

That's odd, given that I distinctly remember being at a lobby demanding his reinstatement outside the fire station in Aston one miserable Monday morning around the time of the dissolution of the Socialist Alliance when not one SWP member showed up. Must've been a busy day.

 

[JHE]

Such memories can be dissolved in the greater understanding of the Historic Role of The Party.

 

[mutley]

That's odd, given that I distinctly remember being at a lobby demanding his reinstatement outside the fire station in Aston one miserable Monday morning around the time of the dissolution of the Socialist Alliance when not one SWP member showed up. Must've been a busy day.

I remember being at a lobby demanding his reinstatement at the station next to Aston Uni (by the flyover) where there were several swp members in attendance, all that we could round up in fact, with the event being on a workday. I actually think that it was a Monday morning..

Maybe there was another lobby at that station that we missed, or if you mean the fire station off Witton Road then i wasn't there and did't know anything happened up there.

What is definitely the case, and if you would accept that this is true it would be kind of nice, is that we had an absolute and definite position that we would give whatever support and solidarity we could to Steve against the management. That's why we were willing to put time into publicising his case around the stations, which he didn't want to do (which was a big mistake - he won several legal battles and still didn't get reinstated!).

We were also sharply opposed to what he was arguing inside the Socialist Alliance, and we were absolutely open about that to Steve, but that did not affect our willingness to support him against his victimisation.

ps i actually would accept your point that the experience of victimisation was probably the biggest factor that led to Steve dropping politics. But i think that that weaknesses in how he approached the case didn't help matters.

 

[mk12]

In the old days it would have been a reason for the assault to deepen until they'd hounded Uberdog into leaving entirely. But now that the prime culprits have gone elsewhere...

 

[Pigeon]

I remember being at a lobby demanding his reinstatement at the station next to Aston Uni (by the flyover) where there were several swp members in attendance, all that we could round up in fact, with the event being on a workday. I actually think that it was a Monday morning..

Well, that sounds like the one. And if you say you were there, then you were there. But I stand by the point that the Great and the Good of the SWP sent a clear message of not supporting the event: Francis certainly was not there and nor was the geezer- Simon?- who replaced him as full-timer. As for the point about it being a workday, yes- that's true. But I took time off to support a victimised comrade and, given the size of the SWP's membership in Brum, it's illustrative that more people didn't do likewise.

What is definitely the case, and if you would accept that this is true it would be kind of nice, is that we had an absolute and definite position that we would give whatever support and solidarity we could to Steve against the management. That's why we were willing to put time into publicising his case around the stations, which he didn't want to do (which was a big mistake - he won several legal battles and still didn't get reinstated!).

Well, the message I got from Steve at the time was that any support offered was conditional and that the campaign would be branded like a stick of rock with the SWp's logo. That was certainly confirmed to me by a private conversation I had with a prominent SWP meber, who siad that Steve considerable attempts had been made to persuade Steve to join the party.

We were also sharply opposed to what he was arguing inside the Socialist Alliance, and we were absolutely open about that to Steve, but that did not affect our willingness to support him against his victimisation.

Well, again: that may be true for you personally (it's odd, as it seems that we must know each other, even if only by sight, but I haven't sussed who you are). But organisationally, he certainly felt victimised both by the Fire Brigade management and by the SWP: cf Francis' alleged threat to make sure that Steve was "finished politically in Birmingham" following a row about being sidelined as speaker at an anti-war demo.

ps i actually would accept your point that the experience of victimisation was probably the biggest factor that led to Steve dropping politics. But i think that that weaknesses in how he approached the case didn't help matters.

OK fine: but that does make your earleir comment to the effect that bin Laden was responsible for Steve's withdrawal from politics look a teensy bit hackish.