SWP fraud?

[JHE]

Perhaps the answer for various leftist groups alllegedly acting in this 'opportunistic' way would be for fighting funds set up in a similar way to 'miners support groups'.

Excellent! Who's going to be the first to set up a Trot Support Group?

I'll be in the town centre next Saturday collecting money and food for the Trots. There'll be two different collections for food though, reflecting the Trots' two different sets of kuchrul needs. There'll be big one container for Student Trot Grub: pot noodles and cans of booze. That one can be outside Lidl. There'll be another big container for Grown Up Posh Trot Comestibles: Extra virgin olive oil, balsamic vinegar, pesto, rocket salad, bottles of wine from La Rioja... That one can be outside Waitrose.

 

[Nigel]

Excellent! Who's going to be the first to set up a Trot Support Group?

I'll be in the town centre next Saturday collecting money and food for the Trots. There'll be two different collections for food though, reflecting the Trots' two different sets of kuchrul needs. There'll be big one container for Student Trot Grub: pot noodles and cans of booze. That one can be outside Lidl. There'll be another big container for Grown Up Posh Trot Comestibles: Extra virgin olive oil, balsamic vinegar, pesto, rocket salad, bottles of wine from La Rioja... That one can be outside Waitrose.

 

[Nigel]

What would you get for the Anarchists

 

[JHE]

I'm not sure anarchists eat at all.

Just give 'em some cider and 'ket'.

 

[Nigel]

Think they have got the best deal!

Anarchos down the K hole

 

[The39thStep]

very petty and irrelevant thread and the o/p is exactly what I would expect from a supporter of the most right wing Labour Govt ever

 

[Raoul Duke]

During my brief and regrettable sojurn in the SWP, the money collected from the stall went to whatever cause it said it was going to, but there would be two collection pots, one for the cause, and one for the party - most members would make it clear which pot they were asking for money to go in.

I do not support the SWP, but the op sounds like bollocks to me.

i used to be a paper/sat sale organiser collections went to the cause paper money to the party

lets remember who the fucking career crminals are please new fucking labour

the OP is alabour toad

 

[dylans]

Your right Geoff. I dont have any firm proof but did read it and hear it from a number of people.

This is just malicious gossip and cheap dirty smearmongering.

 

[JHE]

i used to be a paper/sat sale organiser collections went to the cause paper money to the party

lets remember who the fucking career crminals are please new fucking labour

the OP is alabour toad

You make no attempt to deny the phoney petitions trick, I notice.

 

[dylans]

You make no attempt to deny the phoney petitions trick, I notice.

It's probably true but so what? I think everyone knows that a petition is just a prop to engage people in conversation. I've signed enough of them in my time and I really couldn't care less what they do with them.

 

[JHE]

I think everyone knows that a petition is just a prop to engage people in conversation.

No, people in general do not think that about petitions. They think they are adding their names to a document that, once it's got lots of names, will be used to petition the government or the council or whoever it may be.

What's more, the Social Workers' phoney petitions are not just an excuse to engage in conversation. They are a trick to get people's addresses and phone numbers.

 

[goosegrease]

Speaking from experience, I sometimes used to find that folk didn't really know who they were giving money to and for what. I found the whole paper selling thing an alienating experience anyway but on the occasions when I did actually sell one I would often make the point that they were paying for a newspaper, not raising money for the particular issue that I'd grabbed their attention with.
I don't know if it's fraud though, its easy to hate trots but I think Trotwatch is a total waste of time, infact it's about as low as any Trot goes. I'm more interested in what the government, the CBI or the far right are up to. Trots are just trots when all is said and done.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

I thought this thread was a reference to International Socialist member, Peter Sedgwick's article 'The SWP Fraud' opposing the pretensions of launching an SWP
http://www.marx.org/archive/sedgwick/1976/12/fraud.htm

 

[articul8]

I thought this thread was a reference to International Socialist member, Peter Sedgwick's article 'The SWP Fraud' opposing the pretensions of launching an SWP
http://www.marx.org/archive/sedgwick/1976/12/fraud.htm

which was written in response to your electoral turn, that preceded your abstentionist turn, which was itself followed by your UFoaSK electoral coalition, before going back to an abstentionist position - any idea when we should be expecting the new electoral turn?

no wonder you're known as the swaps

 

[kavenism]

I agree the status of petitions on paper sales is a grey area and whenever I do sales I use them primarily to get peoples attention and to engage in conversation. All of them have “to be sent to Gordon Brown 10 Downing street” at the bottom but don’t know anyone who sends them. These days being a bit more disciplined I tend to collate the email addresses putting marks by the names of people who seemed particularly interested and add them to the email list about local events, meetings etc. All the petitions have a section for donation which I tend to push as an opportunity to buy a paper and make that clear to people. I always identify as SWP not just some random collecting for a cause.

Whenever we have actually been pushing on a specific fund raiser like the DEC appeal this January then I make sure to find out if they are buying a paper or whether they want to give to the appeal. All money collected for the DEC was sent over at the end of the day by direct debit, none went into our branch pocket. I would consider any such skimming off as very dishonourable, however I know it is widespread in the SWP (even with collections from comrades) but I do things my way.

 

[Nigel]

Can a Leopord Change Its Spots?

I agree the status of petitions on paper sales is a grey area and whenever I do sales I use them primarily to get peoples attention and to engage in conversation. All of them have “to be sent to Gordon Brown 10 Downing street” at the bottom but don’t know anyone who sends them. These days being a bit more disciplined I tend to collate the email addresses putting marks by the names of people who seemed particularly interested and add them to the email list about local events, meetings etc. All the petitions have a section for donation which I tend to push as an opportunity to buy a paper and make that clear to people. I always identify as SWP not just some random collecting for a cause.

Whenever we have actually been pushing on a specific fund raiser like the DEC appeal this January then I make sure to find out if they are buying a paper or whether they want to give to the appeal. All money collected for the DEC was sent over at the end of the day by direct debit, none went into our branch pocket. I would consider any such skimming off as very dishonourable, however I know it is widespread in the SWP (even with collections from comrades) but I do things my way.

Hence, having a collective body such as workers support groups, similar to those organised around Miners would make any accusations of Misleading The Public, Fraud or Opportunsm less credible, and also go along with your recent gesture/agenda for left unity.

But that would go against the whole ethos of the SWP, just using this as an opportunity to recruit, and using the small print on the bottom of 'Fighting Funds' like some dodgy time shares salesman to extract money for their opportunistic cause.

 

[JHE]

I agree the status of petitions on paper sales is a grey area..

It's not a grey area. It's a con.

 

[barney_pig]

I agree the status of petitions on paper sales is a grey area and whenever I do sales I use them primarily to get peoples attention and to engage in conversation. All of them have “to be sent to Gordon Brown 10 Downing street” at the bottom but don’t know anyone who sends them. These days being a bit more disciplined I tend to collate the email addresses putting marks by the names of people who seemed particularly interested and add them to the email list about local events, meetings etc. All the petitions have a section for donation which I tend to push as an opportunity to buy a paper and make that clear to people. I always identify as SWP not just some random collecting for a cause.

Whenever we have actually been pushing on a specific fund raiser like the DEC appeal this January then I make sure to find out if they are buying a paper or whether they want to give to the appeal. All money collected for the DEC was sent over at the end of the day by direct debit, none went into our branch pocket. I would consider any such skimming off as very dishonourable, however I know it is widespread in the SWP (even with collections from comrades) but I do things my way.

this is an admission of fraud over the use of petitions, and that theft is a common practice within the SWP

 

[Nigel]

this is an admission of fraud over the use of petitions, and that theft is a common practice within the SWP

No its not, it is a very grey area.
Out of curiosity how is the money given to causes.
When I was in the SWP, we just handed money over to Treasurer or Secretary of local branch!

 

[jannerboyuk]

I'm not sure anarchists eat at all.

Just give 'em some cider and 'ket'.

anarchists eat babies surely?

 

[Nigel]

anarchists eat babies surely?

They definitely look like they've fallen down the K Hole

 

[JHE]

anarchists eat babies surely?

Jelly babies, perhaps. If any of them eat at all, their food is bound to be vegan.

 

[Nigel]

Jelly babies, perhaps. If any of them eat at all, their food is bound to be vegan.

Most Jelly Babies have gelatine in them, you murdering speciest bastard

 

[kavenism]

this is an admission of fraud over the use of petitions, and that theft is a common practice within the SWP

Don't be a twat you're clearly not reading properly if you can see anything like that in what I wrote. If a petition saying "Put people before profit / no more bonuses for greedy bankers" is being used with a space for a donation where exactly do you propose the money to be sent?
As I stated quite clearly although not clearly enough it would seem, whenever a petition for a particular fund is being used all donations go to that fund, be it the Gaza fund or whoever. Random statement petitions over popular issues such as bank bonuses are not purporting to be collecting donations for anyone but the SWP, most people I know make this very clear.

When I have collected for particular causes I have always sent the money to the organising charity personally, usually by direct debit as that’s the fastest way. I'm not sure how other branches handle it.

The skimming off I referred to uses the grey area of paper sales, for example if someone give £10 and takes a paper, the party will retain 80p even though it wasn't exactly hammered out whether the £10 was to go wholly to the charity or the person intended to pay 80p for the paper and £9.20 to the charity. Its not perfect and I generally take the view that the whole donation goes to the charity but I think it would be pretty hard to find any charitable body or political organisation that doesn't experience these kinds of grey areas. Other than drawing out some kind of donation contract that is made clear to anybody giving money at a sale this kind of thing is unavoidable, however it’s a long way from being fraud.

 

[Nigel]

Don't be a twat you're clearly not reading properly if you can see anything like that in what I wrote. If a petition saying "Put people before profit / no more bonuses for greedy bankers" is being used with a space for a donation where exactly do you propose the money to be sent?
As I stated quite clearly although not clearly enough it would seem, whenever a petition for a particular fund is being used all donations go to that fund, be it the Gaza fund or whoever. Random statement petitions over popular issues such as bank bonuses are not purporting to be collecting donations for anyone but the SWP, most people I know make this very clear.

When I have collected for particular causes I have always sent the money to the organising charity personally, usually by direct debit as that’s the fastest way. I'm not sure how other branches handle it.

The skimming off I referred to uses the grey area of paper sales, for example if someone give £10 and takes a paper, the party will retain 80p even though it wasn't exactly hammered out whether the £10 was to go wholly to the charity or the person intended to pay 80p for the paper and £9.20 to the charity. Its not perfect and I generally take the view that the whole donation goes to the charity but I think it would be pretty hard to find any charitable body or political organisation that doesn't experience these kinds of grey areas. Other than drawing out some kind of donation contract that is made clear to anybody giving money at a sale this kind of thing is unavoidable, however it’s a long way from being fraud.

Surprised you don't put expenses claim in
Anyway, getting back to the question I asked before,how is the money dealt with for various for various causes fighting funds,how is the bookkeeping/accounting done?
Who do you give the money to?

 

[JHE]

Kav, you could hand people a form and say, "Would you like to leave us your name and contact details, so that we can pester you about getting involved in the SWP?"

That would be honest and straightforward.

Pretending that's it's a petition is a con. You know this, but you and your fellow recruits just accept it (and other dishonest shit).

 

[butchersapron]

Let's start paying taxes on any benefits we hold as well.

 

[Nigel]

You don't need to if you are a registered charity!

Had hassle with this on two major occasions collecting both signitures and money door to door: Poll Tax & Workers Aid For Bosnia, the latter questioned by police and almost nicked for.

Better if the whole situation is clarified and legite.

 

[Refused as fuck]

If a petition saying "Put people before profit / no more bonuses for greedy bankers" is being used with a space for a donation where exactly do you propose the money to be sent?

I would expect my moneys worth of people before profit. E.g. if I give £1, I want £1 worth of person put before profit. Similarly when I give £1 to STWC, I expect exactly £1 worth of war to be stopped.

 

[butchersapron]

What about admin?