SW CC don't aim 2 promote a classless society, thier aim is the CC 2B a ruling elite.

[TremulousTetra]

right. if the swp are leninist then their members believe in the party - the party right or wrong. if the swp are leninist then they believe they are the party to leave the working class of this country to socialism. in which case they believe their place post-revolution will be to guide the development of the revolution.
[Snip incoherent nonsense]

right. if the swp are leninist then their members believe in the party - the party right or wrong.

just wrong, on so many levels. But to be brief, Leninists believe that the capitalists are organized, and therefore that you need an organised group of revolutionaries, to effectively oppose them. Being properly organized party of 2000, means you can be more effective than 2000 individuals. Something SW regularly displays.

if the swp are leninist then they believe they are the party to leave the working class of this country to socialism.

in my lifetime, it has been an everyday occurrence, that the working class are more likely to fight amongst themselves, than to fight for anarchist society. Picket lines are not there to stop bosses going to work, they are there to stop workers scabbing. In the sense that, both Leninist and anarchist believe, that the dominant ideas in any society are those ruling class that need to be challenged, we are both attempting to lead the working class away from class division, and towards a classless society, IMO. [anarchists tend to do it with balaclavas on ]

in which case they believe their place post-revolution will be to guide the development of the revolution.

their place, as you put it, is no different to what I have said above. The purpose of the Vanguard, is to organise the most revolutionary workers, to be the most effective revolutionary force. A revolutionary force that, wins the arguments with as many of the working class, to not stop when they have made gains of a few crumbs, and take the whole fucking cake, take their destiny into their hands. To win the argument for the emancipation of the working class, by the working class. This debate will still be raging in a workers’ state.


You see, you make the same mistake as butchers, and all anarchist’s. You believe that any sort of hierarchical organization, automatically leads to a hierarchical society. Firstly, this is determinism. Secondly, ignores the facts of the workers’ state.

There is not a society you can name, where those who have controlled the means of production, haven’t controlled society. In a workers’ state, the means of production will be controlled by workers, through workers’ councils. Any hierarchical structures they employed in this period in this country, to impose upon the scabs through force if necessary the will of the workers, would be directly controlled by the 25,000,000 workers of this country. The UK today, is a completely different situation to Russia 1920.

In the end, I know for fact, there isn’t one member of the socialist workers party central committee, who wants to become a ruling elite. Why the fuck would anybody want to put all that effort into creating something we have opposed the entire existence of the swp, state capitalism. What’s more important, why would 25,000,000 workers let us get away with it? This is what I have come to conclude recently, is the fatal flaw of the anarchist argument against Leninism.

So stop worrying about a SWP CC ruling class, and start working together to overthrow capitalism.

 

[barney_pig]

You see, you make the same mistake as butchers, and all anarchist’s. You believe that any sort of hierarchical organization, automatically leads to a hierarchical society. Firstly, this is determinism. Secondly, ignores the facts of the workers’ state.

What facts of the workers state??
Perhaps you can enlighten us which experience of workers states has not led to a heirarchical society?