Suspected swine flu at Glastonbury

[elbows]

Source on the radio claimed they were similar. Perhaps I misheard.

They are similar in that they are both H1N1 and young adults seem most affected. The mortality rate is not similar at this stage, although there are some fears due to suggestion that first wave of spanish flu was mild compared to the 2nd wave, and that the swine flu could follow the same pattern.

 

[Jazzz]

Oh i see, the smallpox vaccine caused the Spanish flu outbreak. Christ, how could i be so stupid as to miss that!

So it wasn't vaccination because the smallpox vaccine had been around a long time already?

Of course, you might accept the same would not apply to the new vaccines given to the troops such as tetanus, yellow fever, diptheria, typhoid, 'paratyphoid' (which seems to be another vaccine-induced creation') - all vaccines made during a period when we knew little about viruses.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

So it wasn't vaccination because the smallpox vaccine had been around a long time already?

Of course, you might accept the same would not apply to the new vaccines given to the troops such as tetanus, yellow fever, diptheria, typhoid, 'paratyphoid' (which seems to be another vaccine-induced creation') - all vaccines made during a period when we knew little about viruses.

You're ignoring my posts so you can get the same, to get a reply to you rather than laughing at you respond to the post i linked to earlier.

 

[elbows]

1989?

I dont know what he is referring to with talk of 1989. There was a flu pandemic in 1889.

 

[panpete]

i wonder how many normal flu cases there are

 

[elbows]

Oh no wonder Jazzz is confused, I read some of that whale.to site and to steal a phrase from Brass Eye, it read like the ramblings of a drugged horse.

Vaccine's arent perfect. A very small minority of people have a bad reaction to them, certain types of vaccine or ingredients or other manufacturing factors can cause problems here and there. The huge benefits that mass vaccination can bring have sometimes caused health planners to downplay any risks. Often they are right, the cool and calculated risk assessments clearly demonstrating that its worth a very small risk to guard against a much bigger risk.

Of all the potential risks from vaccines, causing a flu pandemic is rather low on the list, and there is unsurprisingly a lack of evidence that anything Jazzz is suggesting is true.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

 

[ajk]

i wonder how many normal flu cases there are

It is normal flu, essentially. A(H1N1) is the most common type of influenza that humans are prone to.

 

[claphamboy]

there is unsurprisingly a lack of evidence that anything Jazzz is suggesting is true.

Nothing changes, same old.......

 

[samk]

A crude vaccine could spread all kinds of diseases, Doctors in the 18th and 19th century were useless quacks. Things have probsbly changed slightly since then, maybe not in psychiatry. But lust flu sound like a very good excuse for all kinds of things

 

[elbows]

i wonder how many normal flu cases there are

At Glastonbury?

Obviously hard to say, not too many this time of year, but probably some, and a few colds too.

Often when a pandemic happens, the new strain crowds out other types of flu, causing them to vanish for a long time. If we are lucky the swine H1N1 might eventually displace and eliminate the seasonal H3N2 thats been with us since 1968, but its by no means a cert.

To avoid resource-intensive clinical testing, governments would like to move towards a 'diagnose based on symptoms alone' approach in areas where the swine flu is circulating widely in the community. They tried it in Glasgow brifly, but it was less reliable than they had hoped. And I was just reading some data where a lot of people with 'swine flu symptoms' had their samples tested and a rather large number of them didnt have flu at all, they had several things that we would refer to as 'colds'. Others had the seasonal flu.

 

[Balbi]

Viruses mutate and react to their environment, both national and the environment of the individual. The odds of 1/25000 people in the country having flu, especially at a festival with its well known approach to hygiene and dietary requirements, is high.

Unless the government are trying to kill off glasto through false flagging it

 

[laptop]

Vaccine's arent perfect.

And their biggest single imperfection is this: to appreciate how strongly the balance of risk is in their favour, one must be able to count.

Those who insist on magical-thinking narratives and have no idea that "data" is not the plural of "anecdote" will never be convinced.

 

[Jazzz]

Spanish flu was H1N1 sherlock.

I wonder very much about that.

Dr Jeffery Taubenberger, from whom the allegation of a reconstruction of the 1918 pandemic virus originates, works for the US-American army and has worked for more than 10 years on producing, on the basis of samples from different human corpses, short pieces of gene substance by means of the biochemical multiplication technique PCR. Out of the multitude of produced pieces he has selected those which came closest to the model of the genetic substance of the idea of an influenza virus, and has published these.

In no corpse however was a virus seen or isolated or was a piece of gene substance from a such isolated. By means of the PCR technique there were produced out of nothing pieces of gene substance whose earlier existence in the corpse could not be demonstrated.

If viruses had been present, then these could have been isolated, and out of them their gene substance could have been isolated too; there would have been no necessity for anyone to produce laboriously, by means of PCR technique - with clearly a swindle intention - a patchwork quilt of a model of the genetic substance of the idea of an influenza virus.

How can a layman check on this?

About these short pieces of gene substance, which in the sense of genetics are not complete and which do not even suffice for defining a gene, it is being maintained that they together would make up the entire gene substance of an influenza virus.

In order to see through this swindle one only has to be able to add up the published length pieces, in order to ascertain that the sum of the lengths of the individual pieces, which supposedly makes up the entire viral gene substance of the purported influenza virus, does not make up the length of the idea of the genome of the influenza virus model.

Even simpler it is to ask in what publication you can find the electron microscope photo of this supposedly reconstructed virus. There is no such publication.

translated from http://www.faktuell.de/Hintergrund/Background367.shtml


so a US Army doctor (under orders?) tried specifically to reproduce an influenza-type virus from whatever scraps he could find... very unconvincing reverse-engineering.

But why don't we just believe what we are told! So much easier.

 

[elbows]

A(H1N1) is the most common type of influenza that humans are prone to.

A(H3N2) has tended to cause more infections in recent decades than seasonal pre-swine H1N1, and has often been associated with more unpleasant symptoms.

The 1999 epidemic still looks nice and horrific on the comparison graphs, I remember having that one, it sucked, it was a H3N2.

 

[_float_]

i wonder how many normal flu cases there are

"Each year 3-4,000 deaths are attributed to influenza in the UK. During epidemics, can be much higher, e.g. 30,000 excess deaths in 1989-90 with 89% of these being in people aged over 65 years."

http://www.patient.co.uk/showdoc/40000372/

 

[Lakina]

Spanish flu was H1N1 sherlock.

not sure that's right. There were different human and pig flu strains in 1918. The current H1N1 is closer to the 1918 pig version than the 1918 human version.

 

[Jazzz]

A crude vaccine could spread all kinds of diseases, Doctors in the 18th and 19th century were useless quacks. Things have probsbly changed slightly since then, maybe not in psychiatry. But lust flu sound like a very good excuse for all kinds of things

You got it. And vaccines were still extremely crude in 1918.

 

[Yossarian]

translated from http://www.faktuell.de/Hintergrund/Background367.shtml

Fresh revelations from Die Online Zeitung, with a handy translation?

You're not even trying anymore, Jazzz...

 

[Jazzz]

I'm logging off for the night. sweet dreams everyone

 

[elbows]

not sure that's right. There were different human and pig flu strains in 1918. The current H1N1 is closer to the 1918 pig version than the 1918 human version.

The confusion stems from the fact that H1N1, H2N2, H3N2, H5N1 descriptions are quite a broad classification that only describe a couple of overall features of the virus strain.

Often when you get a pandemic it is when the H or N number changes, but in this case H1N1 was already with us as a seasonal strain, the pandemic strain is also H1N1 but not as we know it.

The Spanish Flu was H1N1, but clearly had differences compared to the new H1N1 swine flu and the seasonal H1N1.

 

[elbows]

But why don't we just believe what we are told! So much easier.

Actually its not, well its easier for you to beleive some non-scientific gibberish than it is to explore what science actually knows about flu. Because there is plenty we dont know, often scientific papers raise more questions than they have answers.

Magical thinking is easier, it does not require a high standard of evidence gathering and analysis, and does not require thousands of years of human knowledge discovery as a foundation.

There are lots of very interesting questions about flu. Whether te 1918 pandemic was H1N1 is not usually considered one of them.

 

[ajk]

A(H3N2) has tended to cause more infections in recent decades than seasonal pre-swine H1N1, and has often been associated with more unpleasant symptoms.

The 1999 epidemic still looks nice and horrific on the comparison graphs, I remember having that one, it sucked, it was a H3N2.

I'm happy to be corrected. Pretty sure last time I had really bad flu it was 1998/99 as well, it was hilarious.

 

[elbows]

As for Glastonbury and flu, the real story comes after, its about how many people pick it up whilst they are there, and then pass it on, rather than how many went with it, although the two are obviously related.

Im not sure we will find out, the flu has been spreading rather rapidly in certain parts of the UK recently anyway, and many cases arent confirmed by testing or reported at all.

 

[laptop]

Spoiler: feeding the troll

I wonder very much about that.

Dr Jeffery Taubenberger, from whom the allegation of a reconstruction of the 1918 pandemic virus originates, works for the US-American army and has worked for more than 10 years on producing, on the basis of samples from different human corpses, short pieces of gene substance by means of the biochemical multiplication technique PCR. Out of the multitude of produced pieces he has selected those which came closest to the model of the genetic substance of the idea of an influenza virus, and has published these.

In no corpse however was a virus seen or isolated or was a piece of gene substance from a such isolated. By means of the PCR technique there were produced out of nothing pieces of gene substance whose earlier existence in the corpse could not be demonstrated.

If viruses had been present, then these could have been isolated, and out of them their gene substance could have been isolated too; there would have been no necessity for anyone to produce laboriously, by means of PCR technique - with clearly a swindle intention - a patchwork quilt of a model of the genetic substance of the idea of an influenza virus.

How can a layman check on this?

About these short pieces of gene substance, which in the sense of genetics are not complete and which do not even suffice for defining a gene, it is being maintained that they together would make up the entire gene substance of an influenza virus.

In order to see through this swindle one only has to be able to add up the published length pieces, in order to ascertain that the sum of the lengths of the individual pieces, which supposedly makes up the entire viral gene substance of the purported influenza virus, does not make up the length of the idea of the genome of the influenza virus model.

Even simpler it is to ask in what publication you can find the electron microscope photo of this supposedly reconstructed virus. There is no such publication.

translated from http://www.faktuell.de/Hintergrund/Background367.shtml


so a US Army doctor (under orders?) tried specifically to reproduce an influenza-type virus from whatever scraps he could find... very unconvincing reverse-engineering.

But why don't we just believe what we are told! So much easier.

I know enough German to know what that meant to say - and it makes as little sense as does the quoted gibberish.

The person writing that doesn't have the faintest idea of what Taubenberger was doing, or of what gene sequencing is about.

All it takes to convince Jasss is for someone to say "I agree with you because splurgle blaugh!"...

 

[ajk]

Spoiler: feeding the troll

I know enough German to know what that meant to say - and it makes as little sense as does the quoted gibberish.

The person writing that doesn't have the faintest idea of what Taubenberger was doing, or of what gene sequencing is about.

All it takes to convince Jasss is for someone to say "I agree with you because splurgle blaugh!"...

Well, it's Dr Stefan Lanka, who IIRC has some "interesting" views on HIV and vaccination.

 

[elbows]

I'm happy to be corrected. Pretty sure last time I had really bad flu it was 1998/99 as well, it was hilarious.

Yeah, for me it was the full-on sweating, cannot get out of bed, lung pain funfest. Its the worst flu I can remember having, although I vaguely recall a bout of flu around 1990 or 1991 which spread rapidly throughout our school. and then Gary Linekar was at our prize giving, and then he got flu, and he had been to see the Queen, and then it was reported that she had flu. So I joked that we had given the Queen our flu, which is possible I suppose but no way to ever know for sure, any maybe time has dimmed my recollection of the facts.

A change to H3N2 around 2004 was thought to have the potential to cause an epidemic then, it hit some places a bit hard but in the end it did not produce anything like the spike of deaths that happened around 1999.

Another significant change to H3N2 in the 2007/08 season meant that the H3N2 component of that seasons vaccine was not very well matched to the strain that ended up circulating then.

For the curious one of the sources for my statement about H3N2 having been a bigger git than H3N2 in recent times is this:

Speaking at a news briefing, Bresee said influenza A/H3N2 has become the predominant flu subtype in the United States, and the record over the past 25 years shows that seasons dominated by H3N2 tend to be worse than those dominated by type A/H1N1 or type B.

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/influenza/general/news/feb1508flu.html

 

[cantsin]

It's not terribly surprising, is it? Goneril came home with a swine flu letter from school; a few of her classmates have succumbed. And we're a couple down at the blacking factory, as well. Bound to be a few cases in a hundred thousand muddy funsters.

do you have a child called Goneril or is that a typo ?

 

[laptop]

Spoiler: Off-topic

Well, it's Dr Stefan Lanka, who IIRC has some "interesting" views on HIV and vaccination.

Blimey, it's an all-purpose conspiracy theory:

Since one did not find the boss of the maintained El Kaida, Bin Laden, to El Kaida on Arab only the way is called and before the warm redevelopment of the collapse-endangered New Yorker skyscrapers of this organization nothing did not hear, with Saddam also no means of mass destruction, as the maintained smallpox viruses were found, the reason for the second Iraq war were and now already again deadly viruses are maintained, might be clear, who in reality the terrorists are and who in reality the suicide bombers: All, which take part in the virus panic and go through in it!

Everyone who believes there's a bit of risk from a flu virus appears to be colluding in... well, everything.

OK, I own up: morally, I killed Marilyn. I have the vaccine scar to prove it

 

[treelover]

Elbows, you are starting to scare me...