Support the Troops yes or no
- Thread starter bouncer_the_dog
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ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Dubversion said:yeh - you'd know much more about this than me- but once you're in presumably to think about quitting is letting your mates down rather than sticking it to the man. Something that presumably the training will reinforce as much as possible?
True, and the training does centre around loyalty to your fellow soldiers rather than some abstract concept of "God, Queen and Regiment" (although that whole schtick does get run past you).
The other thing is that your training reinforces the desire within you to do your job (whether that's recon, digging a trench or "policing" a roadblock) well (unless you're a para, then you just run round hitting people and telling them how hard you are, then bottling out of any "fair" fight
), so "sticking it to the man" doesn't come into it, unless you're talking about playing possibly harmful practical jokes on your officers, 
rhys gethin
New Member
As other peope have sort of said (a) if we 'support our troops', what do we do to show that? and (b) if we don't 'support our troops' how do we act differently? As Idaho pointed, this is American stuff. The question is whether we support Bliar and his gang and whether we can get strong enough to bring the soldiers home - the soldiers themselves, like nurses, firefighters and people on the bins, just do a job. In their case it is difficult to form a union, but they get reasonably paid, compared with most. I 'support' all workers by collecting for strikers and suchlike things. With soldiers such support only happens when things get a LOT closer to revolutionary action than we've seen in our lifetimes.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Yossarian said:
IMHO "support the troops" is a bit of an erroneous concept.
What I'd like to see people do, rather than blindly supporting or not supporting the British military, is to think about who, ultimately, put the troops "in harms' way" and why they were put there, and then either support or decry the politician who sent them there.
There are some military actions in the 20th century where I'd have given the politicans involved a slap on the back for mooting British participation, there are others where I'd feel better shivving the politicians responsible for military deployment.
Iraq falls under the "shiv the cunts" column for me.
bouncer_the_dog
Well-Known Member
The problem is by saying 'I do not support our troops' is what reaction can you have when they are killed. 'I told you so' or 'good' or 'so what'. The problem is by saying 'I support our troops' you are supporting a group of people shooting people in a foriegn country in your name when you don't want them to be there.
TAE said:
I think the officer ACF gradute lot know excactly what they are up to & should not be included in this "support the troops " debate they have enough sense to undertsand what they are comitting to , but I disagree that the rank and file squaddie takes the enormity of his pledge on board
Look at the army ads on the TV or wherever for cannon fodder - its is hardly an Oliver Stone style summary of the Iraq situation - all sloMo sucking chest wounds and decapitations - it is however a seies of images of people enoying themselves, traveliing the world, learning a trade and having night outs with money in their pockets - I dont mean to demean people, but this MB isnt exactly represenative of the world out there - theres a huge amount of sub 20 year old men out there really dont have a fuckin clue whats going on in the world and probabaly even less idea of what they want to do.
when yer brought up with shit education/ shit housing/ shit diet/ uninformed peers / shit prospects ....I think that many of these lot are victims and we shouldnt allow the gung ho facade of boisterous squaddies to disguise this fact that they are fresh meat for the politicans ends
um....
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
ViolentPanda said:True, and the training does centre around loyalty to your fellow soldiers rather than some abstract concept of "God, Queen and Regiment" (although that whole schtick does get run past you).
The other thing is that your training reinforces the desire within you to do your job (whether that's recon, digging a trench or "policing" a roadblock) well (unless you're a para, then you just run round hitting people and telling them how hard you are, then bottling out of any "fair" fight
Is this referred to as esprit de corps?
revol68
what, fucking what?
there's a guy i know whose a rwactionary cock and he joined the army as an officier, last christmas we got into a blazing argument and I informed him that if their was any justice in the world his corpse would be dragged round Basra in a burning tyre. Might not sound nice or dignified on my behalf but this was after he informed me he wouldn't care about how many civilian casualties he inflicted as long as he carried out orders.
Spion
I hear ya
That's debateable, to say the least.Andy the Don said:
I wish no illwill on them as individuals, but should they be in situations where they are buggering about in someone else's business then sadly they deserve what they get.
I've got a relative and a good friend in the forces right now. They know my views and accept them. For their part they have done their damndest to avoid getting put into the Iraqi hornet's nest and think the whole thing stinks.
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
Well if support is sending a parcel/mail out to anyone you know out there its a nice gesture.If its putting a bumper sticker on your car thats just a bit sad and a tad american.
The whole baby killer spitting at the wounded thing from vietnam (if it actually happened) is unacceptable .Unless the blokes commited war crimes
when they should punished (no excuses ) .
Its an unpopular war I guess giving any returning serviceman a break and not launching into a the war is wrong rant is all the support they need .
The whole baby killer spitting at the wounded thing from vietnam (if it actually happened) is unacceptable .Unless the blokes commited war crimes
when they should punished (no excuses ) .
Its an unpopular war I guess giving any returning serviceman a break and not launching into a the war is wrong rant is all the support they need .
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
TAE said:Were you a marine?
Light Infantry.
Don't like paras. Personal prejudice.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
nino_savatte said:
Perhaps, if you're French.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
ViolentPanda said:Perhaps, if you're French.
The Yankee-doodle-dandies appropriated it too. When I was in (shock, horror!) The ROTC - a cadet body - they often used that phrase over and over again.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
revol68 said:
If that's the case then this "man" (I use the term advisedly) isn't fit to be a toilet cleaner, let alone anything else.
If he had the wit of a lump of coal he'd know that just "carrying out orders" isn't enough. If he were ordered to kill civilians, his actual duty would be to ignore the order, simply because it would, under present RoEs, be illegal.
Next time you see him, give him a slap for me, and tell him that "I was only following orders" isn't a defence, and that harming and killing civilians, even by accident, in pursuit of orders, would see him before a Court Martial, at the very least.
I hate wankstains like that.
bouncer_the_dog
Well-Known Member
My original post was stimulated by the debate over satirical cartoons of the war in Iraq over using the coffin draped in a flag as a theme. Should the satirical cartoonists resist using the 'flag draped coffin' out of respect for the troops. Does taking a stance on support or not supporting the troops allow you to use that imagery. I am tempted to say I think you should be able to criticise the troops severly for being in Iraq and if they are upset by that then tough. Criticising the administration is almost a given as far as I am concerned, fair game. Willing the troops to die is contradictory if you don't want them to be there in the first place becuase of the killing and our involvment in it.
I also thought it was a good point earlier about 18year olds being niave when they sign up. When I was 17 I was in the cadets and was going to go and join the army. But then I thought better of it I went to art school instead. So I am doubly conflicted over this 'support' 'not support' thing...
I also thought it was a good point earlier about 18year olds being niave when they sign up. When I was 17 I was in the cadets and was going to go and join the army. But then I thought better of it I went to art school instead. So I am doubly conflicted over this 'support' 'not support' thing...
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
That's because they generally are.revol68 said:
They're good at their job (assault forces), but they're fuck-all use for anything that requires a lighter touch IMHO.
They also have a reputation among other regts for thuggery, usually until you invite them for a spot of "one on one", at which time they have to be elsewhere.
My Granda was a Para, back when they were formed in WW2. He sent his beret back after Bloody Sunday, along with a letter to the O.C. the Paras, telling him the regiment had been disgraced beyond redemption.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I think the imagery of the "flag-draped coffin" is fair game purely because it's a symbol that's been usd many times before, to make a point about many different wars.bouncer_the_dog said:
"Art school"!!
Hippy!
BlackSpecs
The DogFather
ViolentPanda said:"Art school"!!
Hippy!
.....i was there and he was painting bottles of champagne !!!
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Mr.Bishie said:Have we met?
Nah, you is a yout', Bish!
absinthe pirate
Well-Known Member
Hmm i might regret posting in this thread but...
I would firstly like to point out my views on the war will remain out of this, as will my opinion on the governments decisions/choices/whether the troops should be brought home/allegations against some troops as these are all different issues that though possible to link in i feel could cloud the issue
I was going to join the forces. Not because i like guns or want to shoot stuff, but because i wanted to represent my country, protect her people and defend those who are opressed/bring peace where no other means can be found (idealistic i know) I am now reconsidering my options, but for the record am still tempted to sign 6 years of my life away.
3 of my friends are out there now...do they want to be there? not really. Do they feel they are doing any good? who knows but i know they are working their arses off every day and i pray they get home safely. I respect that when in the forces you can't cherry pick what you do and when. Nobody wants to go and maybe die do they? But they do, because that is what they are paid to do...To just leave would be...wrong? They signed up for the good and bad.
It is a highly important question of can you support the people without supporting the cause, i admit...but i would have to say i do support the troops, god knows they need all the help they can get and most of em in my opinion are doing a damn fine job.
I would firstly like to point out my views on the war will remain out of this, as will my opinion on the governments decisions/choices/whether the troops should be brought home/allegations against some troops as these are all different issues that though possible to link in i feel could cloud the issue
I was going to join the forces. Not because i like guns or want to shoot stuff, but because i wanted to represent my country, protect her people and defend those who are opressed/bring peace where no other means can be found (idealistic i know) I am now reconsidering my options, but for the record am still tempted to sign 6 years of my life away.
3 of my friends are out there now...do they want to be there? not really. Do they feel they are doing any good? who knows but i know they are working their arses off every day and i pray they get home safely. I respect that when in the forces you can't cherry pick what you do and when. Nobody wants to go and maybe die do they? But they do, because that is what they are paid to do...To just leave would be...wrong? They signed up for the good and bad.
It is a highly important question of can you support the people without supporting the cause, i admit...but i would have to say i do support the troops, god knows they need all the help they can get and most of em in my opinion are doing a damn fine job.
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