Support the Troops yes or no

[revol68]

Much of the insubordination and "fragging" was a self-interested response to inexperienced soldiers leading their troops into unnecessary danger rather than a principled rejection of the moral or political basis of the war.

Well it's a good job i don't base my politics on moralistic liberalism then. It's going to war you fucking numpty not buying fair trade tea.

 

[nino_savatte]

It depends whether you're thinking top-down or bottom-up. If this country was better organised politically, we wouldn't be fighting these wars. We have only got ourselves to blame, collectively.



Your observation of these people is accurate. However, the point isn't necessarily true. People may have perfectly sincere political reasons for supporting a war without being obliged, or indeed, able to participate in it.

I think you're referring to militaristic types that support the idea of war in principle, rather than people that are thinking politically and discriminating necessary/just wars from unnecessary/unjust ones.

I think you're talking out of your arse. Without the concept of country/nation, there is no state as it requires the construction of an identity for it to exist; therefore the two are inextrcably linked to one another. There are those who support wars because they are convinced to do so by the government, the press and even peer pressure.Yet, I tend to findthat most vocal supporters of wars aren't likely to get outof their armchairs and "put their money where their mouth is".

So, would you describe the Iraq invasion/occupation.war as a 'just cause'? Because I don't, it was prosecuted on the basis of lies and faulty information.

 

[revol68]

It depends whether you're thinking top-down or bottom-up. If this country was better organised politically, we wouldn't be fighting these wars. We have only got ourselves to blame, collectively.

see your problem is that your still viewing things in a nationalist perspective, as if the state represents "Britain" and since we are all british then we are all collectively responsible, this overlooks the massive division within "Britain", the fundamental one that strectches across the globe, namely class. Who is this we you talk about? I'm not responsible for sending troops into Iraq, the people who are, are as much my enemies as Al Qaeda.

 

[Idaho]

So someone makes a decision you disagree with, you have no sympathy if he finds himself in an illegal war being blown up?

It's a natural position to adopt. If I hate someone's trousers I spend the whole day willing them to die horribly. I'm sure everyone's the same.

 

[zoltan]

Well, yes. They can leave the Army, I'm sure it's possible.
Maybe he shouldn't have thought that joining the army is a good thing?.

Most of them are / were Kids when they joined and most see the army as a way of escaping the shithole lives in Glasgow/Tyneside/LIverpool and the like.

I can remember what A naive twat I was at 17-18 - its pretty fuckin scarey how dumb you were at that age - im still dumb now, but....

I would not have been able to make a rational decision on war/army/middle east at that age - I was into jumping about and cheap lager.


I used to be very anti squaddie/ army - but now understand why people join up, even if I disagree with the rest of the shit behind it - they are human beings that are being shit on and used by others, even if they are not overtly aware of it.

 

[sleaterkinney]

So someone makes a decision you disagree with, you have no sympathy if he finds himself in an illegal war being blown up?

If that decision is to join a job and stay in it where there is a high likelyhood of that happening as well as a high likelyhood of him blowing up someone else, then no I wouldn't. Sorry if that seems cold.

 

[sleaterkinney]

It's a natural position to adopt. If I hate someone's trousers I spend the whole day willing them to die horribly. I'm sure everyone's the same.

For the record, I don't want anything to happen to the soilders in Iraq, I would much rather they came home safe and sound.

 

[BlackSpecs]

Most of them are / were Kids when they joined and most see the army as a way of escaping the shithole lives in Glasgow/Tyneside/LIverpool and the like.

I can remember what A naive twat I was at 17-18 - its pretty fuckin scarey how dumb you were at that age - im still dumb now, but....

I would not have been able to make a rational decision on war/army/middle east at that age - I was into jumping about and cheap lager.
.

Exactly ! i think it says a lot about those sick fucks in charge who send them there in the first place ! Bloody vampires .... I am sure when they meet in Davos and at other summits they wank each other off , watching footage of what happens after the camera of those smart bombs cut out upon impact !

 

[Dubversion]

If that decision is to join a job and stay in it where there is a high likelyhood of that happening as well as a high likelyhood of him blowing up someone else, then no I wouldn't. Sorry if that seems cold.

It's not just cold, it's totally unrealistic and naive.

 

[sleaterkinney]

It's not just cold, it's totally unrealistic and naive.

Whatever.

 

[Dubversion]

Whatever.

well that's not a very useful response.

Read other people's comments - do you really think some 18 year old kid, who really might believe he's doing the right thing for all sorts of reasons that aren't his fault - is at fault?

 

[sleaterkinney]

Read other people's comments - do you really think some 18 year old kid, who really might believe he's doing the right thing for all sorts of reasons that aren't his fault - is at fault?

What you're saying is that he's not responsible for his actions, is that not the case?

edit: And these actions - going to war and killing people, are pretty serious.

 

[pk]

I draw the line at wishing ill or thinking badly of people out there getting fucking blown up.

Young troops, yes. They're innocent and they can't be allowed to have political opinions, they do what they are told unquestioningly. And the MoD will leave them without proper protection and lie about it when they are killed.

But mercenaries, gung ho child raping US Marines, or American businessmen taking advantage of what is now a third world country, or Donald Rumsfeld types, I hope they are blown to shit or taken out in a helicopter by a surface to air missile. Sincerely, they are the surplus people of the world and their deaths can only be a good thing.

 

[TAE]

they're still young people being sent to fight on what is claimed to be our behalf. The war disgusts me, the politicians behind it disgust me, the whole process disgusts me, but I draw the line at wishing ill or thinking badly of people out there getting fucking blown up.

Don't forget they are out there 'blowing up' others.

 

[Dubversion]

What you're saying is that he's not responsible for his actions, is that not the case?

edit: And these actions - going to war and killing people, are pretty serious.

I've had members of my family join the army. They were decent people, not very political, and they thought they were doing the right thing. Luckily they never got called on to fight.

They didn't join to kill Iraqis, but if that's what they were told to do, they probably would have done.

What you're failing to understand is that although I probably agree with your analysis of the situation, these people probably wouldn't even see the world in the same terms. You're asking someone to apply your worldview - presumably anti-authoritarian, anti-military, left/anarcho or something - and then quit the army.

That's just not how the world is, i'm afraid.

The fault for the presence of some 18 year old kid in Iraq lies with the government - and other governments - in the first instance. Then with education, the political climate, blah blah blah blah.

 

[Dubversion]

Don't forget they are out there 'blowing up' others.

i haven't forgotten that.

Christ, this really isn't a difficult thing to take on board.

 

[Dubversion]

What you're saying is that he's not responsible for his actions, is that not the case?

to an extent, he's responsible for his actions.

But one can only be judged on their actions in the context of available information. Some kid growing up in a pretty normal British political climate is going to believe what they're told by the press and their community and politicians about what they're doing.

 

[MikeMcc]

Don't forget they are out there 'blowing up' others.

They are also there helping schools and hospitals, rebuilding infrastructure, training police, lots of other things that don't get reported

 

[TAE]

do you really think some 18 year old kid, who really might believe he's doing the right thing for all sorts of reasons that aren't his fault - is at fault?

Yes, of course he is. When you join the army, you more or less sign your life away. Some officer can tell you to kill others and to get yourself killed. If someone signs up for that, then why should I support them?

 

[TAE]

They are also there helping schools and hospitals, rebuilding infrastructure, training police, lots of other things that don't get reported

I was replying directly to something he had said about being blown up.

 

[Dubversion]

Yes, of course he is. When you join the army, you more or less sign your life away. Some officer can tell you to kill others and to get yourself killed. If someone signs up for that, then why should I support them?

I don't know that i care whether you 'support' them. I just don't think they deserve your condemnation.

A kid in the army is the victim of the same process as an Iraqi who gets bombed or a granny who can't pay her heating bill, IMO

 

[sleaterkinney]

What you're failing to understand is that although I probably agree with your analysis of the situation, these people probably wouldn't even see the world in the same terms. You're asking someone to apply your worldview - presumably anti-authoritarian, anti-military, left/anarcho or something - and then quit the army.

Left/anarcho or something is quite a good description of my views.

I see what you're saying, and I've never been in the position of being 18 years old in newcastle/liverpool etc, but I can only argue from my own pov.

 

[Dubversion]

sure, all i'm asking is that you consider the context in which a kid signs up and then the kind of information they have access to while they're in and then see if you still think they should be deserting or fragging their officers.

 

[sleaterkinney]

to an extent, he's responsible for his actions.

But one can only be judged on their actions in the context of available information. Some kid growing up in a pretty normal British political climate is going to believe what they're told by the press and their community and politicians about what they're doing.

He'd have to be living under a rock not to know whats happening in Iraq. There's an interesting point in there though about how much people should stay informed about politics etc.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The troops are doing their bit by following their orders.

We need to do our bit as active citizens by creating a political climate in which military force is used only when it's both legal and politically advantageous.

Rather a sweeping statement.
Surely you mean "when it serves the national interest"?
Otherwise people might think that you mean that the military should be a policy tool to be used by administrations for their own gain.

The concept of "duty" might be alien to the average 21st Century mind, but I'm glad the armed forces continue to understand it. So should we.

Soldiers generally observe "duty" to mean "being there for your mates", not some adherence to a lofty code of honour and service that'll get them killed.

 

[Dubversion]

Soldiers generally observe "duty" to mean "being there for your mates", not some adherence to a lofty code of honour and service that'll get them killed.

yeh - you'd know much more about this than me - but once you're in presumably to think about quitting is letting your mates down rather than sticking it to the man. Something that presumably the training will reinforce as much as possible?

 

[MikeMcc]

I was replying directly to something he had said about being blown up.

My apologies

 

[ViolentPanda]

i haven't forgotten that.

Christ, this really isn't a difficult thing to take on board.

It is for some. Usually because they don't wish to.

 

[TAE]

I don't know that i care whether you 'support' them.

The thread starter does!

I just don't think they deserve your condemnation.

I'm not 'condemning' them. I simply don't support them.

A kid in the army is the victim of the same process as an Iraqi who gets bombed or a granny who can't pay her heating bill, IMO

I disagree - they are not victims. Anyone who joins the army in the UK must know what will be expected of them.

 

[Yossarian]

So should we rise above petty nationalism and 'support' all troops everywhere, or is there a line to draw somewhere?