Support the Troops yes or no

[Culdee]

We shouldn't forget that aside from the Iraqi people, the troops are the second most screwed-over party in this whole affair. These people didn't join up to be storm-troopers for the governments' own ambitions, most just wanted an exciting career and maybe the chance to kill some baddies, but instead they were put in danger for no good purpose.

I can definitely see the attraction of a forces career, and probably wouldn't have gone in for it if I had trusted the government not to betray me in this way. I believe what has happened will have (is having?) a serious diminishing effect on recruitment.

So yeah, support our troops (although what does that actualy mean in practice anyway? Seems its main use is to be co-opted by people wanting it to mean 'support our war'), loathe the cunts who put them there.

 

[Dubversion]

The troops are still workers- they may be indocrinated and pumped full of shite, but they are still workers at the end of the day - still being exploited by the fuckers at the top and the politicians.

Exactly. If you were taking any kind of Marxist view (false consciousness, yadda yadda) they're victims of a process and certainly shouldn't be condemned for their involvement.

 

[untethered]

No sign of an explanation of what supporting them actually involves, though. Knitting woolly hats and posting them to Basra maybe? I imagine untethered has a couple on the go.

Mrs Untethered has a couple on the go.

I'm hard at work on my magnum opus, "Britain: Right or Wrong."

Note the absence of a question mark at the end of the title.

 

[bouncer_the_dog]

No sign of an explanation of what supporting them actually involves, though. Knitting woolly hats and posting them to Basra maybe? I imagine untethered has a couple on the go.

In a hypothetical situation if you met a soldier fresh back from Iraq what would you say to them? Would you give them a piece of your mind for being involved with the war? Ive met a couple and on one occasion slated it and the Army and they were quite upset. On other occasions I skirted around the issue and wasn't overly critical when it came up.

 

[Fruitloop]

My granny always used to send me hats. They looked like pigs bladders made of wool.

 

[bouncer_the_dog]

when did you become arbiter of who posts where, you arrogant fuck. You'll also see that i posted a serious point already.

You're REALLY making a tit out of yourself with this hissyfit you know

Its not a hissy fit its my usually dissapointment at seeing your name in a thread on Urban75. They should rename this place Urban75 and Dubversion.

 

[Fruitloop]

In a hypothetical situation if you met a soldier fresh back from Iraq what would you say to them? Would you give them a piece of your mind for being involved with the war? Ive met a couple and on one occasion slated it and the Army and they were quite upset. On other occasions I skirted around the issue and wasn't overly critical when it came up.

I don't see the point really. I would try to talk a young person out of joining up though.

 

[Dubversion]

my, that was coherent

seems like you're derailing your own thread now, please stop

 

[nino_savatte]

Its not a hissy fit its my usually dissapointment at seeing your name in a thread on Urban75. They should rename this place Urban75 and Dubversion.

When I see posts like this, it reminds me of how they should be teaching grammar in schools.

 

[untethered]

When I see posts like this, it reminds me of how they should be teaching grammar in schools.

How about bringing back grammar schools?

 

[nino_savatte]

How about bringing back grammar schools?

Wtf has that got to do with teaching grammar in schools?

You just can't get decent quality trolls around here anymore.

 

[bouncer_the_dog]

I claim a) horrible keyboard and b) silent appearance of Boss in room while typing.

 

[untethered]

What nonsense. How about you? Are you prepared to lay down your life for the state? I'll be you aren't. You're just another gutless armchair warrior.

In principle, yes. I'd see it as service to my country rather than the state, though. No-one sensible goes out with the specific intention of "laying down their life". Generally the best thing that a soldier can do is to stay alive. However, being killed is an occupational hazard and one that the warrior accepts.

If you're implying that anyone supporting a war is obliged to fight in it, I'd say that's self-evident nonsense.

Incidentally, I oppose the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

 

[revol68]

likewise as a muslim I feel obliged to support 'our troops', I don't agree with many of the things they are sent to do but whilst they are there I will continue to support them in their difficult times.

Some of youse tards need to try abit of lateral thinking.

 

[Dubversion]

I always felt really angry watching footage of troops coming back from Vietnam to be met by protestors and people giving them shit.

it was horrible and also seemed to contradict at least part of the point for the anti-Vietnam movement

 

[sleaterkinney]

I always felt really angry watching footage of troops coming back from Vietnam to be met by protestors and people giving them shit.

it was horrible and also seemed to contradict at least part of the point for the anti-Vietnam movement

Why, Is it not fair to say that since they actually took part in it, they also support it?

(Maybe not the case in Vietnam because of the draft, but it would apply to Iraq).

 

[nino_savatte]

In principle, yes. I'd see it as service to my country rather than the state, though. No-one sensible goes out with the specific intention of "laying down their life". Generally the best thing that a soldier can do is to stay alive. However, being killed is an occupational hazard and one that the warrior accepts.

If you're implying that anyone supporting a war is obliged to fight in it, I'd say that's self-evident nonsense.

Incidentally, I oppose the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

"Country"? "State"? They're pretty much the same thing.

And this wee gem

If you're implying that anyone supporting a war is obliged to fight in it, I'd say that's self-evident nonsense.

I often find that the most vocal supporters of wars tend to be those people who are quite content to view the unfolding spectacle on telly; call for troop reinforcements and make the most bellicose noises in support of war but just aren't prepared to go and fight. It isn't "self-evident nonsense" and you're trying to be too clever for your own good.

 

[Dubversion]

Why, Is it not fair to say that since they actually took part in it, they also support it?

(Maybe not the case in Vietnam because of the draft, but it would apply to Iraq).

Well, no. Firstly, you can't pick and choose when you fight - "sorry, lads, i'm going to sit this one out, not comfortable that the UN resolutions have been followed to the letter".

Secondly, as already discussed, just because some kid joins the army thinking it's a good thing and then gets sent to fight doesn't mean they deserve our condemnation, does it?

 

[revol68]

I always felt really angry watching footage of troops coming back from Vietnam to be met by protestors and people giving them shit.

it was horrible and also seemed to contradict at least part of the point for the anti-Vietnam movement

yeah that is shit especially when it was the most marginalised who got shipped off to fight, but I fail to see what that's got to do with "supporting our troops" bollocks.

I support "our troops" in soo much as they resist, reject and resent their position, in so much as they refuse to be "our troops".

We support our troops when they frag their officiers.

 

[Dubversion]

are you a Marxist of any kind, revol?

 

[Andy the Don]

We support our troops when they frag their officiers.

You honestly do not have a clue.. There is a bond between officers & "other ranks" they are all in the same shithole together & they require each other & trust each other to pull themselves through & get out the other side alive.

 

[revol68]

Well, no. Firstly, you can't pick and choose when you fight - "sorry, lads, i'm going to sit this one out, not comfortable that the UN resolutions have been followed to the letter".

Secondly, as already discussed, just because some kid joins the army thinking it's a good thing and then gets sent to fight doesn't mean they deserve our condemnation, does it?

condemnation no, family members of mine have joined the armed forces after sitting around on the dole, but there is a massive difference between being a moralising wanker condeming individual soldiers and refusing to "support our troops". Who does it serve reduce the situation to such a binary choice?

 

[Dubversion]

condemnation no, family members of mine have joined the armed forces after sitting around on the dole, but there is a massive difference between being a moralising wanker condeming individual soldiers and refusing to "support our troops". Who does it serve reduce the situation to such a binary choice?

but i don't think i argued for such a binary choice?

 

[untethered]

"Country"? "State"? They're pretty much the same thing.

It depends whether you're thinking top-down or bottom-up. If this country was better organised politically, we wouldn't be fighting these wars. We have only got ourselves to blame, collectively.

I often find that the most vocal supporters of wars tend to be those people who are quite content to view the unfolding spectacle on telly; call for troop reinforcements and make the most bellicose noises in support of war but just aren't prepared to go and fight. It isn't "self-evident nonsense" and you're trying to be too clever for your own good.

Your observation of these people is accurate. However, the point isn't necessarily true. People may have perfectly sincere political reasons for supporting a war without being obliged, or indeed, able to participate in it.

I think you're referring to militaristic types that support the idea of war in principle, rather than people that are thinking politically and discriminating necessary/just wars from unnecessary/unjust ones.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Well, no. Firstly, you can't pick and choose when you fight - "sorry, lads, i'm going to sit this one out, not comfortable that the UN resolutions have been followed to the letter".

Well, yes. They can leave the Army, I'm sure it's possible.

Secondly, as already discussed, just because some kid joins the army thinking it's a good thing and then gets sent to fight doesn't mean they deserve our condemnation, does it?

Maybe he shouldn't have thought that joining the army is a good thing?.

 

[revol68]

You honestly do not have a clue.. There is a bond between officers & "other ranks" they are all in the same shithole together & they require each other & trust each other to pull themselves through & get out the other side alive.

Good job you told me that.

Except I'm referring to how this can break down, when troops refuse to fight, this is somewhat less likely in a fully professional army but it in draft or semi proffessional armies such as the yanks it can become a possibility.

In Vietnam there was massive insubordination amongst the grunts, infact the resistance of troops is one of the most inspiring struggles of the 60's and 70's.

 

[BlackSpecs]

i can't help but feel sorry for most of them , especially since over the past years their image as being "gentlemen-soldiers" has taken a nosedive and even they themselves must have woken-up from their brainwashed state , realizing one or two things about british politics!!!!!

Also , i am often very shocked by their age . you keep seeing 18 - 19 year olds patrolling Basra .....i would shit myself going there with my 29 years -leave alone being 18! Something some of us Urban"Livingroom" warriors might want to consider from time to time !

 

[untethered]

In Vietnam there was massive insubordination amongst the grunts, infact the resistance of troops is one of the most inspiring struggles of the 60's and 70's.

Much of the insubordination and "fragging" was a self-interested response to inexperienced soldiers leading their troops into unnecessary danger rather than a principled rejection of the moral or political basis of the war.

 

[Idaho]

I think the whole 'support the troops' thing is more of an American thing. Not really relevant here. Over there they seem to either idolise or despise their soldiers depending on the political fashion at the time.

I think here we have a reasonably healthy detatchment/distrust of the military in general, tempered with the realisation that the soldiers themselves are told to do dangerous things apparently on our behalf. I don't think the soldiers themselves are really ever the target of abuse.

 

[Dubversion]

Well, yes. They can leave the Army, I'm sure it's possible.
Maybe he shouldn't have thought that joining the army is a good thing?.

So someone makes a decision you disagree with, you have no sympathy if he finds himself in an illegal war being blown up?