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Support Gary McKinnon

It is a disgrace that the UK would allow this man to be deprted to face such an opressive sentence that is on the cards. It would be a shocking display if disloyalty. I am not usually 'political' but I have been following the case in the local papers and think it is important the state back this man.

eta: re previous post, Aspergers or not the point is the fact the govt would willing sacrifice this person, their citizen, to another country for such a 'crime'. it would be very very wrong and would in many ways give a greener light for huge social disobedience and suspicion and contempt for the state.
 
Its absolutely right that he should be tried in the US. The systems he broke into were in the US. He should be tried in the jurisdiction where he broke the law, that would be the US, that makes perfect sense.
He knew precisely what he was doing, he was a sysadmin. He knew what the risks were.
Furthermore the argument that it was someone elses fault because they didnt secure their network properly is no acceptable excuse, if I leave my door unlocked you still cant come into my home.
People are pre-supposing the verdict before the case has been heard, there is every possibility he'll be seen as a whacko and will only get 50 years or so in prison.
 
Yep.

As hackers go, he wasn't even that good. This is a show trial.

Don't know about the first bit, agree with the second. It's outrageous that he can be extradited to the US but we don't have any reciprocal extradition rights over US citizens who commit crimes in our country. As 8ball says, we're America's bitch.

BTW, I also have Asperger's and would repeat what others said about people with Asperger's being responsible for their actions. Gary would have known what he was doing - it's the reaction to it that's so disproportionate IMO.
 
People with ASD (they're not "sufferers" by the way, it isn't a disease) are perfectly capable of taking responsibility for the consequences of their own actions, in all but the most severe cases.

It's ludicrous that McKinnon is being extradited and threatened with a long prison sentence for something so silly, but his Asperger syndrome is not relevant here and to suggest that it should act as a "Get out of jail free card" is patronising in the extreme and displays a near total ignorance of the nature of his condition.
I disagree. I think it is relevant.

An Aspie - who would like struggle in everyday social interactions - would be very vulnerable indeed in a prison setting, especially a long-term secure prison with murderers and rapists and all sorts. They just don't have the devious gene required to survive in a place like that.

Aspies also tend to suffer from co-morbids (I agree with you, btw, about people not 'suffering' from AS), but suffer they can and do from co-morbids, like depression, anxiety and so on. There are health and wellbeing implications related to incarcerating an Aspie in the kind of hardcore high-security facility where it's likely McKinnon would end up if extradited and convicted.

That makes his condition relevant. Not in the sense of a 'get out of jail free' card, but in the sense that a high-security jail, where fellow convicts are likely to be extremely dangerous to a vulnerable and not-particularly wily or street-wise individual (I'm assuming, based on personal experience and knowledge of the Aspie community here) would be a cruel and unusual punishment.

And while, yes, I don't dispute that McKinnon knew that he was doing something a bit naughty, so did have an awareness of right and wrong, I don't doubt that he had no inkling whatsoever of the wider implications of his actions, that it would be perceived as a terrorist threat. I do think that being hyper-focussed and not being able to see a bigger picture is something that affects some Aspies.

I mean, even most people appreciate that there are leagues of wrong, i.e. speeding on a motorway late at night isn't as bad as armed robbery of a bank.

Who could have foreseen that looking for information about UFO conspiracies and proof of alien life-forms or whatever he was looking for could have ended up with him facing terrorism charges.

As an Aspie, that does not compute. Aspies are quite logical, as I'm sure you know. It would be extremely bewildering for an Aspie - who *knows* he's not a terrorist, and hasn't committed any act of terrorism, to be facing spending the rest of his life in prison for committing offences he hasn't committed. Does not compute.

It would be bad enough to be charged and convicted with offences that had been committed, that would be logical, that would compute. But this just doesn't. And I think that would lead to a lot of additional anguish for an Aspie.

Think of a miscarriage of justice, and the sense of frustration and futility an NT (neurotypical) would feel. Now think what effect a miscarriage of justice would have on someone who is hardwired for order, logic, it would totally blow a brain fuse. The impact on an Aspie would, I would argue, be far worse than the impact of such a situation on an NT. It would be not just the regular punishment, but a cruel and unusual punishment over and above that which would be experienced by an NT.

So I do believe his diagnosis is relevant.
 
Don't know about the first bit, agree with the second. It's outrageous that he can be extradited to the US but we don't have any reciprocal extradition rights over US citizens who commit crimes in our country. As 8ball says, we're America's bitch.

BTW, I also have Asperger's and would repeat what others said about people with Asperger's being responsible for their actions. Gary would have known what he was doing - it's the reaction to it that's so disproportionate IMO.
Agreed on both counts.

The whole extradition treaty issue is uneven and wrong, and McKinnon is being used as a political football.

I'm also Aspie and agree with Aspies being responsible for their actions, but with the caveat that the condition is relevant in terms of an Aspie's perhaps different perception as to what they've done wrong, and also the impact of the punishment, it has to be proportionate, and it ought not to cause any undue suffering and harm, and certain living conditions could prove to cause suffering and harm.

Other criminals might see prison as an occupational hazard and be better able to cope with it, whereas someone who just realises he was being a bit naughty might find it harder to cope.

There is also a sense of what is supposed to be responsible for, and his and others *perceptions* of what he's done wrong: By which I mean it's 'virtual' it's not 'real' it's not like breaking into Fort Knox and stealing is it, he didn't physically break in by breaking locks, jimmying doors open, they left their security wide open, in a sense, it's like someone visiting Fort Knox and finding a door open and deciding to have a nosey around, and he didn't steal anything, so what's the biggy, kinda thing? Effectively, McKinnon's perception of what he's done wrong, of what he's responsible for is miles apart from the American authorities perception of what he did wrong, of what he's responsible for, iyswim. So it's all very well, people saying that he has to accept responsibility, but what for? For being a bit naughty and looking for UFOs? For being a terrorist and threatening US national security? It's not a matter of glass half full glass half empty, or six of one and half a dozen of the other. It's a matter of glass nearly full and glass nearly empty, and a 11 of one and 1 of the other. The perceptions of what's been done are leagues apart.
 
An Aspie - who would like struggle in everyday social interactions - would be very vulnerable indeed in a prison setting, especially a long-term secure prison with murderers and rapists and all sorts. They just don't have the devious gene required to survive in a place like that.

Hmm.

'Doing your own time' and keeping out of other people's face is also a useful skill in prison, and Aspies can be pretty good at this.

I don't agree that he should get any kind of special treatment, especially since he seems so high-functioning. I just disagree with what the U.S. Government is doing because it's wrong.

As for being possibly 'unable to see the bigger picture' in connection with his actions and their consequences, that's something he's likely to share with 99% of the prison population.
 
While we're on the subject, does anybody find themselves getting a bit annoyed that being a bit odd is now considered a medical condition? There's nothing wrong with most people diagnosed with ASD these days that a few nights out of the house and a good shagging wouldn't fix :p
 
I'd LOVE to agree with the last bit (though I did do a bit of clubbing when I was younger) but sadly there's no evidence that Asperger's is cured by having lots of sex. Mind you, I'm happy to try it if I can find a suitable volunteer....;)
 
While we're on the subject, does anybody find themselves getting a bit annoyed that being a bit odd is now considered a medical condition? There's nothing wrong with most people diagnosed with ASD these days that a few nights out of the house and a good shagging wouldn't fix :p

Here is your prescription, a bag of pills some banging tekno and a good shag. Now go ave it. :)

This sounds like proper alternative therapy.
 
This is a miscarriage of justice his Aspergers is a factor in his actions. The whole thing is obviously not about him but political game play. Fundamentally when we can't extradite US citizens they should not be able to extradite ours, I'm sad there was not more support for his case amongst the legal profession, having met his Solicitor at a support demo who was very dedicated but quite young
 
This is disgusting and makes me so angry. All he needed was a slap on the wrists, but instead, our own government is sending him to a foreign country where he might have to spend the rest of his life in prison. I really feel for the poor guy, I hope he goes into hiding now.
 
I disagree. I think it is relevant.

An Aspie - who would like struggle in everyday social interactions - would be very vulnerable indeed in a prison setting, especially a long-term secure prison with murderers and rapists and all sorts. They just don't have the devious gene required to survive in a place like that.

Aspies also tend to suffer from co-morbids (I agree with you, btw, about people not 'suffering' from AS), but suffer they can and do from co-morbids, like depression, anxiety and so on. There are health and wellbeing implications related to incarcerating an Aspie in the kind of hardcore high-security facility where it's likely McKinnon would end up if extradited and convicted.

That makes his condition relevant. Not in the sense of a 'get out of jail free' card, but in the sense that a high-security jail, where fellow convicts are likely to be extremely dangerous to a vulnerable and not-particularly wily or street-wise individual (I'm assuming, based on personal experience and knowledge of the Aspie community here) would be a cruel and unusual punishment.

And while, yes, I don't dispute that McKinnon knew that he was doing something a bit naughty, so did have an awareness of right and wrong, I don't doubt that he had no inkling whatsoever of the wider implications of his actions, that it would be perceived as a terrorist threat. I do think that being hyper-focussed and not being able to see a bigger picture is something that affects some Aspies.

I mean, even most people appreciate that there are leagues of wrong, i.e. speeding on a motorway late at night isn't as bad as armed robbery of a bank.

Who could have foreseen that looking for information about UFO conspiracies and proof of alien life-forms or whatever he was looking for could have ended up with him facing terrorism charges.

As an Aspie, that does not compute. Aspies are quite logical, as I'm sure you know. It would be extremely bewildering for an Aspie - who *knows* he's not a terrorist, and hasn't committed any act of terrorism, to be facing spending the rest of his life in prison for committing offences he hasn't committed. Does not compute.

It would be bad enough to be charged and convicted with offences that had been committed, that would be logical, that would compute. But this just doesn't. And I think that would lead to a lot of additional anguish for an Aspie.

Think of a miscarriage of justice, and the sense of frustration and futility an NT (neurotypical) would feel. Now think what effect a miscarriage of justice would have on someone who is hardwired for order, logic, it would totally blow a brain fuse. The impact on an Aspie would, I would argue, be far worse than the impact of such a situation on an NT. It would be not just the regular punishment, but a cruel and unusual punishment over and above that which would be experienced by an NT.

So I do believe his diagnosis is relevant.

Lots of people would be 'vulnerable' in a US prison, not just people with an AS diagnosis. Trying to say that means at some level, it would be "okay" to send a "normal" person to jail - for as long -in those circumstances, and I don't think it would be.
I don't blame him for trying that line, though.

The point is, should the UK be extraditing anyone in that position if they stand a good chance of a disproportionate sentence - I think not.

Plenty of so called "neuro typicals" also crack up in prisons, see the suicide rates :( Opposing it on principle it's wrong is fair enough, but it would be wrong for anybody.


eta: saying why he might not have understood the full implications of what he was doing is different, though.
 
As an Aspie myself, I can see how his condition might have affected his perception of his actions and the possible consequences thereof. Like amany Aspies and autistic people, when I'm really interested in a subject I tend to get very, very interested, thus I can end up knowing an awful lot more than some folk about particular subjects and find myself almost fixated on finding more information. If Gary MacKinnon was affected in terms of becoming fixated on his chosen subject, and became fixated enough to either brush off or simply not consider that breaking into US computer systems was going to carry with it all manner of consequences for him, then perhaps this could be used as a partial defence.

One thing is for certain, the potential sentence of 60-70 years in prison is ridiculous and unjustifiable in the circumstances of his particular case, whether he an Aspie or a 'neurotypical' offender. It smacks of a show trial and of the US Government being hugely embarassed by their own lack of decent security, and embarassing the US Government tends to bring out their vindictive streak in pretty short order.
 
Isn't 70 years the max he could get though? It will probably be much less. Still its well over the top. As someone said you could rape and even kill and get less than that!
 
As an Aspie myself, I can see how his condition might have affected his perception of his actions and the possible consequences thereof. Like amany Aspies and autistic people, when I'm really interested in a subject I tend to get very, very interested, thus I can end up knowing an awful lot more than some folk about particular subjects and find myself almost fixated on finding more information. If Gary MacKinnon was affected in terms of becoming fixated on his chosen subject, and became fixated enough to either brush off or simply not consider that breaking into US computer systems was going to carry with it all manner of consequences for him, then perhaps this could be used as a partial defence.

If there is any supporting evidence that he was in fact a ufo enthusiast rather than a part time hacker using his professional knowledge to break into computer systems for fun.
You see, I've heard this defence that he was a ufo enthusiast and I have to say I am highly sceptical because there has been no overwhelming evidence shown that that is what he was doing. Was he a member of any ufo societies? Was he active on any forums? Did he have a library of books? Or is it as I suspect just a fabrication to hide the fact and provide justification for the fact he was a grown man living out his war games fantasies.
He was breaking into military computer systems run by a foreign government, he should be tried in that land under their laws, you would have to be stupid to think you can somehow get away with that.
 
If there is any supporting evidence that he was in fact a ufo enthusiast rather than a part time hacker using his professional knowledge to break into computer systems for fun.
You see, I've heard this defence that he was a ufo enthusiast and I have to say I am highly sceptical because there has been no overwhelming evidence shown that that is what he was doing. Was he a member of any ufo societies? Was he active on any forums? Did he have a library of books? Or is it as I suspect just a fabrication to hide the fact and provide justification for the fact he was a grown man living out his war games fantasies.
He was breaking into military computer systems run by a foreign government, he should be tried in that land under their laws, you would have to be stupid to think you can somehow get away with that.

You seem to be missing out on the fact that Aspie's can become very fixated on things, sometimes to the point where it can adversely affect an Aspie's judgement, including the judgment of risks and consequences.

You don't need to be a card-carrying UFO enthusiast with an extensive library or be a member of any UFO groups to become fixated with UFO's, you know, especially if you're an Aspie. He could just as easily have acquired a fixation on any other subject that didn't involve hacking computers and would not have brought him into conflict with the law. As it is, he did, and is thus being labelled a criminal rather than an oddball or obsessive.

I doubt very much that Gary MacKinnon is 'stupid' either, as we Aspie's can, despite our social problems, very often turn out to be as bright as anyone else, if not brighter. I'm much more inclined to think that he bacame fixated on UFO's and this affected his judgement of the potential consequences.
 
All we know for sure is that he hacked into those systems.
Lots of people get deep and obsessive about hobbies but I believe his hobby was hacking and not ufos and nothing has been shown to lead me to think otherwise.
 
All we know for sure is that he hacked into those systems.
Lots of people get deep and obsessive about hobbies but I believe his hobby was hacking and not ufos and nothing has been shown to lead me to think otherwise.

Real hackers don't use easily available programs to sniff for blank passwords.

No challenge there.
 
Real hackers don't use easily available programs to sniff for blank passwords.

No challenge there.

Of course, they'll go about it the hard way every time.

from wiki

"In common usage, a hacker is a person who breaks into computers, usually by gaining access to administrative controls."


That he even sought out US government computer systems to hack into at all is part of the challenge. He sought them out and he broke into them gaining root level access. What he did then is highly irrelevant.
 
Of course, they'll go about it the hard way every time.

from wiki

"In common usage, a hacker is a person who breaks into computers, usually by gaining access to administrative controls."


That he even sought out US government computer systems to hack into at all is part of the challenge. He sought them out and he broke into them gaining root level access. What he did then is highly irrelevant.

I'd have thought, given that the US Government is at the centre of a lot of UFO stuff, that hacking the US computers would have seemed, to him, to be one of the more effective things he could have done to gain information. Thus making your suggestion that he was hacking those computers for the sheer fun of it redundant.

And what he did after he had gained access is highly relevent. Did he go public with what he found? Did he attempt to seel information to the highest bidder? Did he attempt any sort of blackmail? The answer to all three of those questions is, IIRC, no.

Hence, his actions after having broken into the computer system would be of great relevence, especially in the event of his having to offer mitigating circumstances for his actions.
 
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from wiki

"In common usage, a hacker is a person who breaks into computers, usually by gaining access to administrative controls."

Administrative controls is where you can have the most fun. Though just getting in and then looking at some documents is the mark of someone who is after information rather than hacking for fun. Assuming what he has said about what he was doing is accurate, obviously.

The term 'hacker' covers a myriad of different sorts with different agendas, but those who take the easy way in and then don't do much else in there are generally after information and so either loonspuds or they are looking for criminal opportunities.
 
Administrative controls is where you can have the most fun. Though just getting in and then looking at some documents is the mark of someone who is after information rather than hacking for fun. Assuming what he has said about what he was doing is accurate, obviously.

The term 'hacker' covers a myriad of different sorts with different agendas, but those who take the easy way in and then don't do much else in there are generally after information and so either loonspuds or they are looking for criminal opportunities.

We only have his word on what he was getting up to, it is clear these werent well monitored or secured systems, he is yet to convince me he is telling the truth. All we know is he deliberately broke into those systems.
 
We only have his word on what he was getting up to, it is clear these werent well monitored or secured systems, he is yet to convince me he is telling the truth. All we know is he deliberately broke into those systems.

You have heard of the concept of 'innocent until proven guilty' haven't you?

It's not for Gary McKinnon to prove his innocence of the charges against him, it's for the prosecution to prove his guilt. And don't you think that a potential sentence of 60-70 years for hacking is just a tad excessive, especially when, as far as we know, no serious damage, if any, was done? And his Asperger's Syndriome, depending upon the influence it almost certainly will have had on his actions, is certainly a mitigating circumstance.
 
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