Summary of Israeli Casualties from Terrorism

[rachamim18]

Grandma: "So Rachamim, you are not refusing to provide any sources to Rose, at all? You know how that looks?": Listen. I do believe you know exactly what is going on, that I DID provide a fair amount of hyperlinked sources to Rose in the previous thread, concerning the PA, and in the end it solved nothing. To date Rose still maintains she did not see any proof supporting my point. Going by that as an indication in futility I would rather she do a cursoy search herself, barring that be left to her won devices. AGAIN: I do not come to this as some sort of intellectual Olympics but simply as common political discourse.

To further nail home my point, Rose asked several things in that other thread.


Rose asked:

Does the PA Minister of Interior control all internal security issues. I replied that that responsibility has its own Portfolio, the Minitry of State SEcurity. Rose did not believe me, I showed her with a PA list.

Rose could not understand how that could be because in 2006, after HAMAS first gained a moderate majority in the Legislature, a new Cabinet had to be ratified.

Ratification begins right after Western New Year (Jan. 1 o any year directly following an election year).


List of assigned Portfolios are released in early March of the same year.

At times people are not able to gain Ratification, or ratification takes much longer than anticipated , and since this was HAMAS' first real win alot of Portfolis were taking longer than usual.

So, Rose finds a list from March 2006 and says "See, there is NO Ministry of Security!!!!." Then she shows me a paper, provenance unknown to me, that says responsibilities of State Security are under the Interior Ministry.

I tell Rose, no, there is always some crossover with all Portfolios but in the case of Internal Security it lies with the Minister of State Security. She asks, then what were the names of all the Ministers of State Security?


I then tell her all their names, as well as their party affiliations, and dates in office. I add, as a sidebar for general informative purposes that the most recent Fatah /Minister of Security was Dahlan, the man almost single handedly at the center of the HAMAS Coup in Spring 2006.

Rose takes umbrage and informs me that HAMAS could not have staged a coup since IT was elected to office. It was then that I had to explain the Electoral Process within the PA. The only candidate directly elected is the President, in this case Abu Mazen AKA Mahmoud Abbas. As well the Legislature is directly related and that is where HAMAS gained their moderate majority.

It was then up to Mazen to NOMINATE people HE saw fit to serve at Cabinet Level. An Astutue politician will of course nominate some members of the opposition party, all the more so when that opposition had a great showing in the Legislative Elections.

After Nomination, they must all be ratified, one by one, by the Legislature. Many are appproved, some are not. Dahaln was recofnrmed as Minister of State Security. His recofirmation set off a huge amount of resentment in HAMAS who, as I have said, correctly believes that he who controls the army controls the state. THIS IS WHAT LED TO THE COUP.

You then tried to back out of it by saying Abbas went against the Constitution in the affair and I reminded you that there is NO Constiution to go against! They have a Basic Law, which is considered an interim document that serves as a de facto Constituion.

The point Rose? After getting trounced, you turned around and astonishingly asked me for sources and said if I failed to provide them you would consider the debate won. I reminded you that to me at least, it is not a debate but simple discourse. No winners. All the more so when the safety of my family is involved. I did however ALSO remind you that I did hyperlink a page from the PA themselves to show you that the Ministry of State Security, which you were adamant did not exist, certainly did exist.


Then, still tenacious, still not putting it to rest, you tried to challenge me over some mundane fact concerning the PA. I was kind, I tried to let you know I worked hand in hand with that partocular PA Ministry on a daily basis for years but you did not want to listen. So, I had to ask you another simple question. I asked you the name of the Ministry of Jewish Affairs. See, your lists did not show them, the lists you believe are so crucial. You gave uop , you asked me the name, I told you, Rabbi Hirsch of Monsey NY and the Neteri Karta who made 50 and then 60 thousand US a year for hug fest phoyo ops and nothing more.

So now we are on a different thread. Again you play these same games. I provided this and that and it is just turninng into another of the same thread. Sorry, if you wish to believe what you believe, just keep holding it dear and leave me out of it.

 

[rachamim18]

Rose: I need to add, to the rest of your post, these biuts of info as rebuttal for two little points you AGAIN raised; You have not had sources for everything you have claimed, not all. You merely have provided a list from the Interior claiming his Portfolio has that role. As I showed you a paer from the exact year, and the Ministry I showed you had that responsibility in its very title, it should not even be an issue for a rational adult. II) Sources CAN sometimes be of some help, IF they are asked for in a civil and calm way, and really prove antyhing. In your case, I could make my own webpage or simply pull a foolish one mimicing what I say. Instead, foolish me, I assumed your rationality and maturity and tried explaining to you your mistakes in your claims about the PA political Process.

Did you then proceed to then check those things I said? No, you simply asked for sources. Would it not far better for you, and for me, for you to actually research soemthing you obviously have an interest in? As it is, THAT info was posted and it should be a dead dog as they say.

For this new issue, I simply will not be bothered. If you feel this means you have won the 400 m hurdles at the intellectual Olympics, Congrads. I could not care less. No offence, but I would rather discuss real issues. I wasted all that time proving you were wrong and to what avail?

You say I am wrong because I cannot answer questions but for 4 posts in a row you fail to answer MY questions. Let us try an exercise that just may help us move past this juvenile bump:

Did you claim that Internal Security is the responsibility of the Minister of Interior? Yes or no?

Did I not tell you noo, there is a tiny bit of overlap but a seaprate Ministry exists just for that, Ministry for State Security? Yes, or no?

Did you deny it because you could not see that position on your papers from the ineternet? Yes, or no?

Did I post the paper, from the PA, showing their just ratified Ministers and among them was the Minister of Sate Securtiy Affairs? Yes, or no?

Did I claim the Portfolio was the main reason behind the HAMAS Coup in Gaza? Yes, or no?

Did you not complain that there was no coup because HAMAS was the elected govt? Yes, or no?

Did I not explain to you that oinly the President is elected and all other members of the Cabinet are appointed BY THE PRESIDENT? Yes, or no?

Finally, did you not say that this violates the "Constiitution" of the PA? Did I not tell you there is no Constitution at all? That there is only a Basic Law? Yes, or no?

Now, since you say you proved everything, you will have no problems showing us by answering those few questions, right?

Ann: "Ann is sad to see Rachamim values Jewish life more than he values Arab life.": No, I value ISRAELI LIFE more than any other lives. I am Israeli, that is natural. Let us look it at it this way. Have kids Ann? IF not, have parents or siblings? Let us take a group of 100 people including these close family members of yours. You are on a ship and told that only a certain number of seats will be given in the liferafts. Would you care if your loved ones get them? Would you feel the same if that strannger you never spoke to gets it and you mum must do without?

You make it out to be soemthing nefarious, such as racism and the lot. In reality, it is nothing more than base human survival instinct. My responsibility, as a former IDF, was to my countrymen and women, not forteigners. I had a responsibility to not treat their lives in a gratuitous fashion, to take whatever precautions possible, but in the end to get Job Done. IF the military objective outweighs any possible Collateral Damage it is comeltely legal under IHL and ROW and rightly so. The responsibility for those non-combatants lies with the LEbanese Govt, its armed forces, and their proxy Hezbollah.












For me, now, I hope to return to the perfectly valid thread sibject material and talk of IT. Hope you will join me.

 

[chainsaw cat]

It may be "sad" but it's perfectly understandable, no?

Do you think his opponents value Israeli lives as much as those of Arabs?

If you were at war, fighting for what you believe to be a just cause, would you value the lives of your adversaries as much as your own? Would you value the lives of people who wish you and your family dead, at all?

What jsust cause? The one aiming to preserve a democracy? Wouldn't anyone with such a cause try to keep some decency in their actions, even in extremis?

You make the mistake. You confuse the 'enemy' with the 'enemy population'.

The 'enemy' is a set, the one with the armed people, and the people actively helping them. The 'enemy population' is a larger set, including the first set.

The 'enemy population' includes a proportion of people who are not your enemy. This subset is made up of varied elements, such as small babies, pacifists, and people who don't like war and don't get involved.

Killing them is not a Good Thing.



Take this on board.

Try. Go on.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Ann: "Ann is sad to see Rachamim values Jewish life more than he values Arab life.": No, I value ISRAELI LIFE more than any other lives. I am Israeli, that is natural. Let us look it at it this way. Have kids Ann? IF not, have parents or siblings? Let us take a group of 100 people including these close family members of yours. You are on a ship and told that only a certain number of seats will be given in the liferafts. Would you care if your loved ones get them? Would you feel the same if that strannger you never spoke to gets it and you mum must do without?

You make it out to be soemthing nefarious, such as racism and the lot. In reality, it is nothing more than base human survival instinct. My responsibility, as a former IDF, was to my countrymen and women, not forteigners. I had a responsibility to not treat their lives in a gratuitous fashion, to take whatever precautions possible, but in the end to get Job Done. IF the military objective outweighs any possible Collateral Damage it is comeltely legal under IHL and ROW and rightly so. The responsibility for those non-combatants lies with the LEbanese Govt, its armed forces, and their proxy Hezbollah.

For me, now, I hope to return to the perfectly valid thread sibject material and talk of IT. Hope you will join me.

You see, that's still what I can't understand rabid nationalism/religion-ism or whatever you want to call it. You believe Israeli lives are worth more than others. I don't believe English lives are worth more than others. Why, exactly, is an Israeli life worth than the life of another person. Does no non-Israeli person have parents or siblings or a spouse or children, do none of them have loved ones who would grieve at the loss of their life?

When Manchester (my home town) was bombed in 1996 by the IRA, I didn't automatically call for the bombing of Dublin in retribution, or those parts of America like New York and Boston with huge Irish communities that helped to fund 'the cause'. I didn't call for the bulldozing of the homes of the families of those who bombed my city either. Incidentally, I was due to go into the city centre that day, I was just getting ready to leave my house in the suburbs when the news came over the radio. A friend I was due to meet, I later found out was in the city centre when the blast occurred, although she was outside the blast zone, fortunately, but it led to some fraught hours worrying about her. I've also been evacuated from shopping centres and the underground more time than I care to remember due to bomb scares in Manchester and London.

Fortunately, no one died that day of the Manchester bombing, it was a miracle, thanks in no small part to the IRA phone warning, however many people were injured and a massive part of the city centre was destroyed, such that it took ten years to rebuild, but English people have been killed in the UK by Irish bombers and there's no way on this earth that I would say the son or father of one of the bombers ought to be killed in retaliation, because an Irish life is worth less than an English life. I just cannot comprehend that mindset. That's what we have a legal system for.

As for the other question, yes, I do have a daughter. She's actually in the British territorial army. As such she could be called on to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan (in fact if the wars carry on, it's likely). She's married to a chap in the regular army whose unit was called up to serve over there recently. They had to get married at short notice in May to ensure death in service benefits in case he was killed. Very romantic. Luckily for him they added up the head count and figured they didn't need anyone at his rank after all, because they have enough people at his rank out there already, and so he hasn't been sent over there after all. If my son-in-law or my daughter were posted over there and were killed in the line of duty, I certainly wouldn't feel it was familial or nationalist duty to go over there and extrct retribution on the general Iraqi or Afghan populace. Absolutely not.

As for the lifeboat question, well, personally, I'm a strong swimmer, used to swim against the boys at school and beat them, and I've also swum across Lake Windermere (only the narrow bit, mind, about a mile wide), so I'd insist on all other children, women and elderly and infirm people in the lifeboats before I took up a space. As for my daughter, if she were there, she's a chip of the old block, even if I tried to fight for or buy or bribe a place for her, I'm 99% certain she'd say the same. She's a bloody stubborn bugger, just like me, she'd consider it a point of pride to ensure all other children and women and elderly and infirm were safe before considering herself. Seriously, I wouldn't be able to argue her out of it (you don't know my daughter, there's really, really no arguing with her).

I'm guessing in the same scenario, you'd say, right, all Israelis to the lifeboats first, and only when all the Israelis are safe then the Arabs can have whatever places are left over? Edited to add: Actually I'm not even 100% you'd let Arabs take up the spare spaces, I'm not sure you'd allow them to sully the same space as Israelis, such is the apparent strength of your belief that they are sub-human or inferior to Israelis.

Actually, what would you do? One place left in a lifeboat: one Israeli person, 70 years old, with dementia, with the majority of their life behind them; one Palestinian child, in rude health, with their whole life ahead of them. Who would you give that seat in a lifeboat to?

 

[rachamim18]

Panda: "Intel, which is perhaps 5% reliable at best basically determines who you are trying to hit, etc..." It entirely depneds on a couple o dynamics. If you work C/T you will be either doing an Entry, or altrnatively Mouseholing and when you enter someone's abode, theior family home, they very often react in a defensive mode. If you cannot neutralise this threat, problemsd ensue. These usually tend to be resolved via non-lethal means. No weapons present makes it a no-brainer,, just manhandle him and subdue him. Separate men into one room, women to another, all on 1st floor an no contact between the 2 rooms.

If instead you are Sweeping a hotbed you use tools like the Straw Widow. You take a single APC and let him make some pases in the souk, etc. and if there bandits they will usually not be able to resist such a tempting and vulnerable target.

My Brigade relies mostly on M113s for APCS and the M113 is a WWII tank chassis converted into a decent carrier, but the armour suck#. A Kalash can punch it with no prroblem whatsoever. And so, from Perimeter Hides we wait as the APC does its slow tour and before long people will be surfing on it.

Believe it or not, Arab preteen males find it a rite of passage to grab onto the back or tops of these APCS and ride for several meters. More to the point, more nefarious among them throw molotovs into openings, grenades, and so on. So, IF they are trying to play with fire, etc., we know who to hit. Alternatively, you will see young or sometimes older men holding mobiles up on rooftops and patios periodically looking over and then quickly speaking into their phones. WE know that they are Intel for militants. On those kills we have to radio in a Confirm but again, we know who to kill.


At demonstrations as one sees in Ni'ilin, other than imminent threat to life, there is no live fire. Within 75 to 175 meters we use rubber (or as Brits like to call them, Batons). You know longer have to aim on the ground but we still do since it is always better to be safe than sorry.

WE, or rather me and anyone I have ever met in the Inhantry or Paras does not look on all opposition as enemies needing to be neutralised. I do not know a single man who likes killing. I know a hell of alot who cannot wait to get out and start university at 22 instead of 17 or 18.


Panda: You know Panda, you have the unfortunate habit of calling people out on such mundane concerns as semantics, all the more silly knowing the person you are addressing speaks your language as his 5th tongue . Then you fail to respond to my corrrection of your REPEATED claim that "Israel created HAMAS."

Israel did no such thing. Briefly, HAMAS is official founded in 1987 but actually dates to 1967, both by outside analysts reckoning and the group's own literature. 67 is a rather arbitrary date and is only used because that was the date on which Egypt, and by relation the Muslim Brotherhood, was cut off from Gazan contact. Everafter the group would have to grow and do it alone (at least until the early 1980s when a pseudo-peace with Egypt appeared on the political scene. However the 2 decades had done irrepreable damage and caused the 2 to diverge so much as to render them incompatible).

From 67 ro the mid 1980s Israel had a hands off policy. Israel was of course VERY well aware of them and was monitoring their weekly sermons and their famous weekly handbills passed out and plastered all over the entire Gaza Strip (except Younis which was Fatah Country through and through).

A Hands off policy is a far cry from "created" or "supported" is it not? IF so, why persist in it?

Now, as for your telling Spy that Fatah was/is secular, indeed it is but at the same time is allied both militarily as well as politically via parallel membership in the PLO with many Islamist militant groups. al Akhsa naming but one gives HAMAS a ride for its money.

The PLO believes in the opposite philosophy espoused by Pan-Arabists. Namely: Conquering of "Palestine" is a prerequisite for Pan-Arabism. Others however offer the Pan-Arabism is the pre-requisite to freeing "Palestine."

The PLO IS Marxist-Leninst but has tempered alot of those views over the years, and since the beginning has involved itself with groups representing a myriad of political views believing that politics makes for strange bedfellows and that to enable her or others to ensure full involvement in the Revolutionary Process, all groups including the bougie need to feel that they have been included.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

...Alternatively, you will see young or sometimes older men holding mobiles up on rooftops and patios periodically looking over and then quickly speaking into their phones. WE know that they are Intel for militants. On those kills we have to radio in a Confirm but again, we know who to kill...

So basically, you *know* any male standing on a rooftop in your vicinity is intel for militants that you *know* to kill?

What about some poor bastard trying to get a decent signal? What about someone who's maybe using their mobile phone to film proof of an occupying force sending APCs down the streets of his hometown/camp as proof of their occupation and illegal activity?

So the IDF *knows* who to target? What, like Tom Hurndall and James Miller?

Edited to add: And what about Fadel Shana, Reuters journalist, in a *clearly marked* vehicle (it either said PRESS or TV) can't recall off the top of my head, but I've seen the footage.



Edited to add:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hurndall

Thomas "Tom" Hurndall (29 November 1981 – 13 January 2004) was a British photography student, a volunteer for the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), and an activist against the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories. On 11 April 2003, he was shot in the head in the Gaza Strip by an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) sniper, Taysir Hayb. According to witnesses, this occurred while he was acting “as a human shield, escorting children away from gunfire.”[1] Hurndall was left in a coma and died nine months later.

Hayb was convicted of manslaughter and obstruction of justice by an Israeli military court in April 2005 and sentenced to eight years in prison.[1]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)

"James Henry Dominic Miller (18 December 1968 - 2 May 2003) was a Welsh cameraman, producer, and director, and recipient of numerous awards, including five Emmy Awards. He often worked with Saira Shah with whom he founded and operated an independent production company called Frostbite Productions in 2001. He was killed by a single shot fired by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) on 2 May 2003 while filming a documentary in Rafah.[1] ...

... the bullet was consistent with that used by the IDF.[23] Independent investigator Chris Cobb-Smith, who had previously served in the British Army and as an Iraq weapons inspector, found there was no way the soldier fired by accident. He told the court, "This was calculated and cold-blooded murder, without a shadow of a doubt."[24] He added, "These shots were not fired by a soldier who was frightened, not fired by a soldier facing incoming fire - these were slow, deliberate, calculated and aimed shots ... It is a soldier aiming and firing deliberately. He should not have been firing anywhere near a lit building, anywhere near where he knew there were women, children or foreign journalists."[22]..."

 

[nino_savatte]

Panda: You know Panda, you have the unfortunate habit of calling people out on such mundane concerns as semantics, all the more silly knowing the person you are addressing speaks your language as his 5th tongue . Then you fail to respond to my corrrection of your REPEATED claim that "Israel created HAMAS."

Israel did no such thing. Briefly, HAMAS is official founded in 1987 but actually dates to 1967, both by outside analysts reckoning and the group's own literature. 67 is a rather arbitrary date and is only used because that was the date on which Egypt, and by relation the Muslim Brotherhood, was cut off from Gazan contact. Everafter the group would have to grow and do it alone (at least until the early 1980s when a pseudo-peace with Egypt appeared on the political scene. However the 2 decades had done irrepreable damage and caused the 2 to diverge so much as to render them incompatible).

The conditions in which Hamas emerged were entirely created by Israel. It is in the interests of Israel to have two factions at each other's throats. Israel benefits greatly from a fractured Palestine.

As for "semantics", you seem rather obsessed with this word, going so far as to even use it out of context. Like the word "paraphrasing".

 

[nino_savatte]

So basically, you *know* any male standing on a rooftop in your vicinity is intel for militants that you *know* to kill?

What about some poor bastard trying to get a decent signal? What about someone who's maybe using their mobile phone to film proof of an occupying force sending APCs down the streets of his hometown/camp as proof of their occupation and illegal activity?

So the IDF *knows* who to target? What, like Tom Hurndall and James Miller?

Edited to add: And what about Fadel Shana, Reuters journalist, in a *clearly marked* vehicle (it either said PRESS or TV) can't recall off the top of my head, but I've seen the footage.



Edited to add:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Hurndall

Thomas "Tom" Hurndall (29 November 1981 – 13 January 2004) was a British photography student, a volunteer for the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), and an activist against the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories. On 11 April 2003, he was shot in the head in the Gaza Strip by an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) sniper, Taysir Hayb. According to witnesses, this occurred while he was acting “as a human shield, escorting children away from gunfire.”[1] Hurndall was left in a coma and died nine months later.

Hayb was convicted of manslaughter and obstruction of justice by an Israeli military court in April 2005 and sentenced to eight years in prison.[1]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Miller_(filmmaker)

"James Henry Dominic Miller (18 December 1968 - 2 May 2003) was a Welsh cameraman, producer, and director, and recipient of numerous awards, including five Emmy Awards. He often worked with Saira Shah with whom he founded and operated an independent production company called Frostbite Productions in 2001. He was killed by a single shot fired by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) on 2 May 2003 while filming a documentary in Rafah.[1] ...

... the bullet was consistent with that used by the IDF.[23] Independent investigator Chris Cobb-Smith, who had previously served in the British Army and as an Iraq weapons inspector, found there was no way the soldier fired by accident. He told the court, "This was calculated and cold-blooded murder, without a shadow of a doubt."[24] He added, "These shots were not fired by a soldier who was frightened, not fired by a soldier facing incoming fire - these were slow, deliberate, calculated and aimed shots ... It is a soldier aiming and firing deliberately. He should not have been firing anywhere near a lit building, anywhere near where he knew there were women, children or foreign journalists."[22]..."

Careful, R18 thinks the ISM are "terrorists".

 

[rachamim18]

Ann: No, not any male on a rooftop/. ANY MALE with a mobile, making quick glances at out equipment and/or men is a dead giveaway, classic MO and os it is Profiled.

APCS in either Gaza or the so called "WB" are not illegal, nor part of any "Occupation." Why do you think the Hague refuses to hear cases involving a supposed "Israeli Occupation?" Occupation is legally defined as the presence of one nationl group upon the territory of another national group. In this case Arabs have NEVER , EVER had a nation on either Gaza ORthe so called "WB." The only nations ot have existed have been Jewish Nations.

IF someone wanted to tape us, we do not care. If using a mobile from 4 floors above a souk you can rest assured it is not taking pics but phoning Intel. There are specific body languages we look for, and if they fit the profile they are gone.

Hurndall was murdered by a Druse NCO who is now serving a civlian prison term. Every society has bad people. Israel's army is a citizen army so it is only fair to ackowledge that all manner of Israeli society would be present in the armed froces. Tironout and sometimes G'bbush (training and classifications) are used to weed out unbalanced people but of course it is not foolproof.


Miller is not such a cut and dry affair and one cannot say what did or did not happen. I would say though, that ISM's very presence is proof that Israel is not some violent machine. Were it so, you would not see Activists camping in pup tents r renting offices in Ramallah. Wjhile I do not wish an unearned death upon anyone, I shed little tears for ISM.

They are foreigners (almost all) and come to our country not knowing a thing about it except their pre-conceived anarchist and communist notions. Most Arabs hate them as well and indeed last year one was stabbed to death in Jerusalem by an Arab.


As for an auto, it does not matter if it was marked because ordnance does not discern messages. If you travel into the path of a flying shell you bought your ticket. If you wish to be in a warzone then you must assume alot of risk.

No offence but your sources are a blast. A so called "weapon's expert" tells us it was calculated and cold blooded murder? On top of his expertise in weapons is he also an empath or psychic? What a hoot. "Not fired by a sxcared soldier..." Tell you what, it was not even a soldier, but an Arab militant according to the IDF.

As another said, the ISM ARE terrorists, the lot of them. Some are patsys but never the less they make their bed.

Again, if you want to interfere in a warzone expect the worst and do not cry foul when you eat a bullet.

 

[pk]

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisraelsum.html

34 dead so far this year.

Landthieves, presumably?

Probably not all of them. But there will never be peace. Unsurprisingly.
Hopefully all the dead were settler scum.

 

[nino_savatte]

As another said, the ISM ARE terrorists, the lot of them. Some are patsys but never the less they make their bed.

"Another said"? Who is "another"? Your assertion that the ISM are "terrorists" is not supported by evidence. It's just another smear and you do smears so well.

 

[rachamim18]

PK: Anyone making a blanket statement like "all 'Settlers' are scum' ius extremely ignorant to say the least. Do you soemhow imagine that every Israeli Jew living on the so called "WB" is there for religious reasons? Many are simply there for the economic incentives that fromer Israeli administrations offered.

Most are members of the lower socio-economic bracket and have no other hopes of owning their own homes. NONE of the legal "Settlements" were EVER built on ANY private land and the "WB" is tradtionally a Jewish land (its name in English, which you probably do not even realise, IS JUDEA and SAMARIA). Ergo, why would you imagine that ALL are scum?

Are the Arabs who invaded that land and built atop Jewish foundations not scum as well? They who stole the Jews' holy sites and then forced them to live as 3rd class citizens (they did not even allow them citizenship!)!

For ANYONE to support the killing of any non-combatant is reprehensible and perhaps you might consider how you would feel were someone to support the murdering of your family for crimes committed by British soldiers (of which there are millions, literally).

Nino: ISM have been caught with weapons, have been caught hiding wanted terrorists with blood on their hands, and have had so called "Suicide Bombers" iun their organisation (British born by the way but i will leave THAT one alone). The ISM are vile terrorists and what is so ironic is that most Arabs hate them just as much as most Israelis do. Typical "Whiteman's Burden" type garbage from vile middle class mouths. To top it all off, they did not get the irony when one of their members was murdered by a "Palestinian" in an act of terrorism last year in Jerusalem. They support their own murderers. The epitome of ignorance.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino: ISM have been caught with weapons, have been caught hiding wanted terrorists with blood on their hands, and have had so called "Suicide Bombers" iun their organisation (British born by the way but i will leave THAT one alone). The ISM are vile terrorists and what is so ironic is that most Arabs hate them just as much as most Israelis do. Typical "Whiteman's Burden" type garbage from vile middle class mouths. To top it all off, they did not get the irony when one of their members was murdered by a "Palestinian" in an act of terrorism last year in Jerusalem. They support their own murderers. The epitome of ignorance.

This is a smear that I've seen you repeat time and time again. The fact that you keep repeating it doesn't make it any more true than any of your other unsubstantiated claims.

 

[pk]

PK: Anyone making a blanket statement like "all 'Settlers' are scum' ius extremely ignorant to say the least. Do you soemhow imagine that every Israeli Jew living on the so called "WB" is there for religious reasons? Many are simply there for the economic incentives that fromer Israeli administrations offered.

Yup. Blow-ins from Brooklyn who wanted to take the Israeli shequelim and make life even harder for the people who have lived and farmed there for hundreds of years. Nasty vindictive bastards.

As I said - scum. More than deserving of the occasional Qassam attack.

 

[tangentlama]

Yup. Blow-ins from Brooklyn who wanted to take the Israeli shequelim and make life even harder for the people who have lived and farmed there for hundreds of years. Nasty vindictive bastards.

As I said - scum. More than deserving of the occasional Qassam attack.

Oh do fuck off, you pro-conflict reactionary.
Deal with the US southern-based pro-segregationists whose 'charitable contributions' assists the ethnic cleansing of Jewish minorities from Brooklyn and elsewhere in US, all supported by militant religious creed which favours 'Jewish restoration to Israel' in order to ensure their saviour's return.

PK: Anyone making a blanket statement like "all 'Settlers' are scum' ius extremely ignorant to say the least. Do you soemhow imagine that every Israeli Jew living on the so called "WB" is there for religious reasons? Many are simply there for the economic incentives that fromer Israeli administrations offered.

This is truth. For example, a large part of the Ariel population are there for economic incentives, and not at all religious. They were not told that the settlement was contentious from the outset

Did all the FSU settlers deliberately move to the occupied territory?

It appears that many of the FSU immigrants may have moved to settlements without understanding that they were moving into the center of a highly contentious international land dispute. The following (grammatically awkward) article, from the August 30, 2001 online English-language edition of the Russian daily Pravda notes:

"Some immigrants from the countries of the former Soviet Union do not even suspect that they live on territories which Palestinians count as theirs. When the peace process was gathered strength, everything was quiet in the Ariel village on the West Bank. But as the Arab-Jewish standoff started to show, the settlers' peaceful life was coming to an end. First, many immigrants could not understand why their cars were thrown at with stones. It has turned out that the territories their were settled are to become part of the future Palestinian state.

"Since then, the number of settlers on such territories has been decreasing rapidly. The 'breaches' have been filled with immigrants from FSU. According to the AP news agency, many were unaware that they were settled on 'Arab territories' which have by now found themselves virtually in the 'war zone.' ...Over the last 2 years, recruiters from Ariel have managed to lure 3,000 people to emigrate there from FSU.

"...Israeli settlements are kind of stumbling block which both sides come across during negotiations. Arabs are angry that Israeli settle their citizens on the territories of the future Palestinian state. The USA and advocates of peace talks count those settlements as a serious obstacle for the peace process. The issue became really burning in 1990, when Premier Itzhak Shamir stated that Israel should hold the West Bank for further generations and for the mass emigration of Soviet Jews. Israel officials have often asserted that the mushrooming of settlements on Arab territories occurs at the expense of birth rate. In reality, this growth was created artificially at the expense of numerous immigrants. So, many FSU residents have willy-nilly found themselves on the embroiled in the thick of the battle."

In an interview with an Australian journalist, Russian settlers in Ariel were even more categorical:

"Irena Gurskay, with her daughter, and brother, Pavel Baraz, came to Ariel about a month ago. They came not for religious reasons but for the economic opportunities. ...Irena and Pavel don't really care about the political situation. In Russia, they were told about Ariel's 26 schools, the university and first-class medical care, but not the fact that it sits in the occupied territories.

http://www.peacenow.org/policy.asp?rid=&cid=1936