"Subsidised" council housing?

[marty21]

What's a better term for it that we can all agree on?

affordable rent works for me

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What's a better term for it that we can all agree on?

Non-exploitative rent.

 

[audiotech]

It's also worth mentioning that for the last 20 years, or so council rents have been going up significantly more than the rate of inflation.

 

[marty21]

Non-exploitative rent.

that works too

 

[Divisive Cotton]

i'm not being fed ideological mumbo jumbo, the argument is about subsidised, my argument is if the council could charge a market rent for your property, it would charge a lot more, by doing without the increased rental income, they are in effect subsidising the rent..

say your council rent is £80 a week, and the same flat could get a market rent of £150, by only charging you £80, they are not making an additional £70 a week, the subsidy is the assumed rent they could have made if they had charged you £150

I don't want councils to charge market rents, I don't want rtb to exist, I want more social housing built to meet the current high housing needs

But that's not a subsidy though is it, er?

 

[_angel_]

I posted up a comment on the Times website early this morning saying that council houses are not subsidized and offering this link as evidence.

Needless to say it hasn't been published as the facts undermine the lead article and the editorial

My comment ain't on there either.

Tbh I couldn't believe it when I found out it is actually the tenants subsidising central government!! How can they get away with the lie that council house tenants get their rents paid by the taxpayer?? (Unless you include DSS but that would be across the board including private tenants)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

that works too

There's not 'too' about it. 'Subsidised rent' doesn't work.

 

[audiotech]

it is an indirect subsidy

Not indirect either as there are no favorable tax policies, loans, import quotas, and price supports.

 

[marty21]

But that's not a subsidy though is it, er?

so what would you call it?, the fact that they choose (whether enforced by legislation or because they want to) to charge lower rent than could be charged if they charged the market rent

 

[marty21]

Not indirect either as there are no favorable tax policies, loans, import quotas, and price supports.

indirect meaning they are doing without an increased income in order to charge a lower rent

 

[_angel_]

so what would you call it?, the fact that they choose (whether enforced by legislation or because they want to) to charge lower rent than could be charged if they charged the market rent

It's only a 'subsidy' if they are getting money from somewhere else in order to charge the tenant less rent?

is this the case or not?

 

[Divisive Cotton]

My comment ain't on there either.

Tbh I couldn't believe it when I found out it is actually the tenants subsidising central government!! How can they get away with the lie that council house tenants get their rents paid by the taxpayer?? (Unless you include DSS but that would be across the board including private tenants)

I have to admit the Times article is the first time I have read that council tenants' rent is subsidised - but they offer no evidence of this with either figures or a quote form a minister. They probably just made it up because it sounded good.

I'm pretty sure at one time council housing was subsidized - there was a rent strike across London in 1968 when the newly elected Tory GLC withdrew the rent subsidy

 

[littlebabyjesus]

so what would you call it?, the fact that they choose (whether enforced by legislation or because they want to) to charge lower rent than could be charged if they charged the market rent

Not acting like complete cunts?

Presumably council tenants should be eternally grateful to their councils for not shafting them up the arse, that state-owned property is not used to exploit people.

 

[audiotech]

so what would you call it?, the fact that they choose (whether enforced by legislation or because they want to) to charge lower rent than could be charged if they charged the market rent

But as I said, for the last twenty years at least local authorities have been increasing social rents year on year by significantly more than the rate of inflation.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

so what would you call it?, the fact that they choose (whether enforced by legislation or because they want to) to charge lower rent than could be charged if they charged the market rent

Okay, so we are getting bogged down in the meaning of subsidy.

From the dictionary:

1. a direct pecuniary aid furnished by a government to a private industrial undertaking, a charity organization, or the like.
2. a sum paid, often in accordance with a treaty, by one government to another to secure some service in return.
3. a grant or contribution of money.
4. money formerly granted by the English Parliament to the crown for special needs.

I don't see how your definition of subsidy fits into this case as "direct" payment or "sum paid" is not given to cover any shortfall in rent revenue.

That is, there is enough money from tenants' rent to pay for all services and have some left over to build more housing.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Let us be crystal clear on this point.

It is council tenants who are subsidising councils.

 

[audiotech]

indirect meaning they are doing without an increased income in order to charge a lower rent

LA's are charging higher rents, considerably more than the rate of inflation, every year and have been so doing for decades.

 

[_angel_]

I have to admit the Times article is the first time I have read that council tenants' rent is subsidised - but they offer no evidence of this with either figures or a quote form a minister. They probably just made it up because it sounded good.

I'm pretty sure at one time council housing was subsidized - there was a rent strike across London in 1968 when the newly elected Tory GLC withdrew the rent subsidy

Right! The idea must have come from somewhere. Tbh I also assumed council housing was subsidized until I read my local tenants association thingie!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Right! The idea must have come from somewhere. Tbh I also assumed council housing was subsidized until I read my local tenants association thingie!

This is why lies like this article need to be pointed out, and the word 'subsidy' should not be misused as marty is doing.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

Another aspect of this as well...

I can easily see how this could be used by the BNP... long-term tenants forced out of their homes to make way for those in need

It's just the type of insecurity they feed off of

 

[marty21]

Not acting like complete cunts?

Presumably council tenants should be eternally grateful to their councils for not shafting them up the arse, that state-owned property is not used to exploit people.

you are getting the wrong end of my stick

i have no problem with reasonable rents being charged by councils, and other social housing providers, I work in social housing, and have done so since 1995, maybe I am being pedantic on this, but the fact remains that councils charge lower rents than the market rent, which is a good thing, I agree with that.

 

[_angel_]

This is why lies like this article need to be pointed out, and the word 'subsidy' should not be misused as marty is doing.

I wonder if they will print what I have said....

Some of those replies appear to be replying to a different article?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

you are getting the wrong end of my stick

i have no problem with reasonable rents being charged by councils, and other social housing providers, I work in social housing, and have done so since 1995, maybe I am being pedantic on this, but the fact remains that councils charge lower rents than the market rent, which is a good thing, I agree with that.

I know you work in social housing, which is why I'm surprised you misunderstand the concept of subsidy, and don't see why it is wrong to use the word in this context.

 

[Zachor]

Let us be crystal clear on this point.

It is council tenants who are subsidising councils.

Yup. They (reluctantly) give council housing with one hand and thieve off of the tenants and residents with the other hand through the profit made on rents and by council tax which never seems to be spent in the areas that people want it spent on.

Was I asked if I wanted my tax money to go to a waste of money 'five a day coordinator' or a make-work 'management' type job created only to reward someone for supporting a particular councillor. No I fucking wasn't.

 

[marty21]

I know you work in social housing, which is why I'm surprised you misunderstand the concept of subsidy, and don't see why it is wrong to use the word in this context.

it's not a misunderstanding, just a different interpretation

 

[audiotech]

it's not a misunderstanding, just a different interpretation

No you are fundamentally wrong, just admit it.

I'm thankful I don't have to deal with you over the phone with my housing issues.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No you are fundamentally wrong, just admit it.

It is bloody important too. A friend of mine with Circle 33 gets letters every year telling her what her rent will be and quoting some spurious figure for what it would have been at 'full market' rent. As if she's supposed to be grateful to them for only putting the rent up by twice inflation.

 

[marty21]

No you are fundamentally wrong, just admit it.

I'm thankful I don't have to deal with you over the phone with my housing issues.

ok, say i rent a room in my flat, or rent my flat out, say the market rent for the room is £150 a week, but i charge a mate £80, I am in effect subsidising my mate because i could have charged someone else more, that's my point

tbh, I would be extremely helpful over the phone

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Facepalm.

You're not subsidising your mate. You are deciding not to exploit your position of power over them as much as you could.

Your reasoning assumes that 'market' rate is in some way 'fair'.

 

[audiotech]

ok, say i rent a room in my flat, or rent my flat out, say the market rent for the room is £150 a week, but i charge a mate £80, I am in effect subsidising my mate because i could have charged someone else more, that's my point

tbh, I would be extremely helpful over the phone

No, you'ld be a bureaucratic, stubborn git and you're still wrong about the word "subsidy".