Yes it is possible to see into the future, in the manner that you specify. I never said it was any way otherwise. What I did say was that it wasn't possible to specify how that future would feel, espeically when that future changes the ground on which subjectivity is based. Tell me, could, for example, a baby of 3 weeks have an idea of what guilt feels like before it has the appropriately developed psychological capacities to facilitate such feeling states (that is, a sense of self as separate from other, and a sense that objects exist consistently across time and space --things it develops much later)? The development of these capacities heralds a new form of subjectivity, the ability to feel concern for the other, something we could not have felt before this.
Subjectivism and Modern Life
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Yes it is possible to see into the future, in the manner that you specify. I never said it was any way otherwise. What I did say was that it wasn't possible to specify how that future would feel, espeically when that future changes the ground on which subjectivity is based. Tell me, could, for example, a baby of 3 weeks have an idea of what guilt feels like before it has the appropriately developed psychological capacities to facilitate such feeling states (that is, a sense of self as separate from other, and a sense that objects exist consistently across time and space --things it develops much later)? The development of these capacities heralds a new form of subjectivity, the ability to feel concern for the other, something we could not have felt before this.
gorski
customised free radical
Errrmmm... Nope, that's apples and chicken in the same sack. A very poor "example", sorry!
We were talking adult Humans, in a changing word, on a cusp of a New Era.
Babies are not at issue here but consciouss, active Human Beings, actively engaged with their world... Babies are only receptive at that point...
Not sure what your point is here, really...
We were talking adult Humans, in a changing word, on a cusp of a New Era.
Babies are not at issue here but consciouss, active Human Beings, actively engaged with their world... Babies are only receptive at that point...
Not sure what your point is here, really...
I'm trying to show you that feeling states - subjective experiences - are not given but arise from a certain psychology, and that that psychology is part of a developmental process. Empathy is a developmental acheievment, I cannot feel empathy before I have met certain developmental milestones. Similiarily changes in the contextual environments - including the social, cultural, and economic spaces we inhabit - will also lead to changes in our sense of subjectivity. These processes of change lead to new forms of subjectivity, that cannot be felt beforehand.
gorski
customised free radical
Ech...
It seems that those "new forms of subjectivity" and their related "feeling states" suddenly jump at us, somehow...
As we turn around the corner and BAM!!!, they get at us, literally from nowhere, suddenly taking over.
Sorry, I just can't see it like that. Nothing I have ever studied and experienced ever supported it in any manner.
I was a member of an underground pro-democracy movement in ex-YU, a totalitarian state, and I can certainly testify as to the opposite!
I.e. we were all excited by all this and foretelling the "coming" new era and our "new feelings" were already there... even if not "completely" and "absolutely"...
"Subjective" and "objective" - it has to be said, too - are not completely mutually exclusive, either and plenty of the "subjective" stuff turned out to be shared.
Hence "social psychology" has plenty of material...
It seems that those "new forms of subjectivity" and their related "feeling states" suddenly jump at us, somehow...
As we turn around the corner and BAM!!!, they get at us, literally from nowhere, suddenly taking over.
Sorry, I just can't see it like that. Nothing I have ever studied and experienced ever supported it in any manner.
I was a member of an underground pro-democracy movement in ex-YU, a totalitarian state, and I can certainly testify as to the opposite!
I.e. we were all excited by all this and foretelling the "coming" new era and our "new feelings" were already there... even if not "completely" and "absolutely"...
"Subjective" and "objective" - it has to be said, too - are not completely mutually exclusive, either and plenty of the "subjective" stuff turned out to be shared.
Hence "social psychology" has plenty of material...
*Groan*
Gorski, I have actually just come to the conclusion that you really don't know what I'm talking about.
I'm not convinced my views are right, and I am looking for debate, but we're not on the same wavelength here so its pointless.
I'll let you resume insulting each other on the other thread.
Gorski, I have actually just come to the conclusion that you really don't know what I'm talking about.
I'm not convinced my views are right, and I am looking for debate, but we're not on the same wavelength here so its pointless.
I'll let you resume insulting each other on the other thread.
gorski
customised free radical
Yeah, I heard that "groan" thing before. Not very novel, no [yawn].
Nope, I think, for what it's worth, you are still in a metaphysical limbo.
As in "stuck in absolutes", i.e. "non-processual thinking"... Even though you have started moving ever so slightly towards it [which, of course, is a good thing and to be hailed!!!] - after I started pointing to the historical and other evidence to the contrary - it's been a bit... half-hearted and a bit stubborn, it seems to me.
And as I said, it's been experienced by me, this phenomenon you are trying to explore, in one of those "Era changing moments in time", one possibly has but one chance of experiencing in one's lifetime. I took mine, we managed to get that country to modernise and I came out of it proud of what I did. So, not just talking from the historical but also personal experience.
None of it really helps, I see. Well, I tried...
Maybe one day...
Nope, I think, for what it's worth, you are still in a metaphysical limbo.
As in "stuck in absolutes", i.e. "non-processual thinking"... Even though you have started moving ever so slightly towards it [which, of course, is a good thing and to be hailed!!!] - after I started pointing to the historical and other evidence to the contrary - it's been a bit... half-hearted and a bit stubborn, it seems to me.
And as I said, it's been experienced by me, this phenomenon you are trying to explore, in one of those "Era changing moments in time", one possibly has but one chance of experiencing in one's lifetime. I took mine, we managed to get that country to modernise and I came out of it proud of what I did. So, not just talking from the historical but also personal experience.
None of it really helps, I see. Well, I tried...
Maybe one day...
gorski
customised free radical
More like an exasperated one...
Ever thought I might say the same thing?
You see, it seems to me like you are deliberately standing by an indefensible statement - I don't know why but it is extremely irritating and annoying...
But of course, it couldn't be you and the way you behave... It couldn't possibly be that what is obvious to me can be true - never point a finger at yourself.
A pointer: both Phil and I wrote many times how one can't separate these phenomena/spheres of Humanity ["like a scientist"] and try to insulate them to that extent... [This is what Phenomenologists are doing all the time, but I am not a Conservative, no...]
Once you see them in a dialectical whole, I think you'll be forced to change that obtuse and pigheaded standpoint of yours.
Until then... stay well and learn, open your mind... [Look in my eyes, look in my......
]
A smug bastard
Ever thought I might say the same thing?
You see, it seems to me like you are deliberately standing by an indefensible statement - I don't know why but it is extremely irritating and annoying...
But of course, it couldn't be you and the way you behave... It couldn't possibly be that what is obvious to me can be true - never point a finger at yourself.
A pointer: both Phil and I wrote many times how one can't separate these phenomena/spheres of Humanity ["like a scientist"] and try to insulate them to that extent... [This is what Phenomenologists are doing all the time, but I am not a Conservative, no...]
Once you see them in a dialectical whole, I think you'll be forced to change that obtuse and pigheaded standpoint of yours.
Until then... stay well and learn, open your mind... [Look in my eyes, look in my......
]A smug bastard
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