Subforum - "party politics" - thoughts?

[Nigel Irritable]

That's why the proposition is to take such discussion to a subforum, rather than to get rid of it. It's obvious that a lot of people are interested in these things, otherwise they wouldn't turn up so often. However, a lot of people are not, and are put off by it.

I do understand that not everyone shares my fascination with sectariana. There probably are people on these boards who would like to discuss political issues but find the alphabetti spaghetti sectarian stuff too crazy/boring/intimidating/irrelevant. On the other hand, I get the impression that some of the people who complain about the UK Politics forum really object to the generally hard left political content as much as the inter-group bickering.

The problem with trying to seperate the organisations from the issues is that most threads about political issues also develop an organisational element quite quickly. Post a thread about the anti-war movement and soon the discussion will include points about the Stop the War Coalition. Post one about immigration laws and it will soon cover New Labour, the BNP and the positions of half a dozen left organisations.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Generally, I fear, mid-thread. <snip>

Yep, that's why I suggested that you simply create a 'shit-fight' forum, and move angry threads there so people who want to beat the shit out of each other can do so without annoying other people.

 

[pilchardman]

On the other hand, I get the impression that some of the people who complain about the UK Politics forum really object to the generally hard left political content as much as the inter-group bickering.

Nah, mate. I never ventured out of here at first. But it gets pretty dull in here at times. I gave it a miss for months. (In my opinion the dullness escalated especially after the streams were separated out, although I understand fully the reasons for that being done).

I've only ventured back recently, because I hope to happen across that one stimulating thread...

 

[the B]

The problem with trying to seperate the organisations from the issues is that most threads about political issues also develop an organisational element quite quickly. Post a thread about the anti-war movement and soon the discussion will include points about the Stop the War Coalition. Post one about immigration laws and it will soon cover New Labour, the BNP and the positions of half a dozen left organisations.

But most importantly, it's not about explicitly about those organisations - it's still about the matter at hand (the anti-war movement, immigration etc)

Rather than what Lindsey German has been barking on about or the inevitable demise of the SWP/RUC...

*Sweep for SWP is

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not really bothered either way - but in practical terms i think you'd just end up with the same forum but with a different name. It's impossible to seperate the issues from the poltical allegiances of those discussing it.

 

[the B]

It's impossible to seperate the issues from the poltical allegiances of those discussing it.

Spot on.

But I don't think people are instantly put off by the fact that group x, y or z or what those groups forward are mentioned in the course of a discussion (or even heavily mentioned in the course of it).

What puts people off is a discussion about those groups - something that could be done in a different forum...

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Although I enjoy Trot-bashing as much as the next man (or woman), I have to say that - though they deserve the stick - it does get a bit dull if all the threads in UKP are about the SWP. (Not least since, in my part of the "UK", the Trots in question are the SSP).

However, what would happen? All mention of Party Politics gets shunted into this new forum? Does that include discussion of the Labour Party taking millions from US gambling corporations to set up Vegas-style casinos in Blackpool and Largs?

Y'see, although I think Party Politics is a sterile wasteland, I do think the shenanigans are a part of the problem facing the citizanry of these islands, and elsewhere. Sadly. And thus need occassionally to be discussed in context. It's the context that makes the difference. Merely talking about internal party matters can safely be left where it is, as anyone with any sense will avoid the thread, or play Os and Xs in the margins.

That's where the problem lies of course - some issues of party politics are of general interest to anyone in the country. I think that in practice though it wouldn't be too hard to distinguish. Certainly trifling points about the internal politics of the Labour party would go in the subforum too as envisaged, but we don't have many of those.

But threads developing into a discussion of who said what at which meeting and how that goes against proposition X does put people off - I've heard it referred to lots of times. I think a lot of people would contribute more if they felt they could do so without being submerged in that sort of thing. If we're going to have a UK Politics forum, my feeling is that it should be accessible to anyone with a passing interest in politics in the UK. Not all reference to party workings would be moved, certainly, but you could be more certain that a thread in UKPol was something that you could participate in not knowing anything about the details of the SWP or whatever.

Put it this way - I consider myself reasonably politically aware, but I've found myself avoiding UKPol for that reason. I'm not aligned with any parties (not just because I'm in the US at the moment, I never have been). The onus shouldn't be on people to drag a thread back onto more general issues. Similarly, if posters do want to discuss who said what at which meeting (and it appears that some do) they should have a space to do so without being sidetracked by "but why does this matter? who is this guy?" questions.

 

[pilchardman]

a discussion of who said what at which meeting and how that goes against proposition X does put people off .

Oh, absolutely. Especially when people in London (this isn't an anti London thing, but a statement of fact) expect the rest of us to know the ins and outs of political groupings consisting of 60 people, which don't exist outside West Hampstead.



(Incidentally, I can't believe I spelled citizenry with an a. Jeeeez.)

 

[KeeperofDragons]

Personally i think it's a good idea.

When I first started looking at the boards I found UKP interesting & when I signed on I posted now & then. In the last few weeks I have been far less likely to even look past the thread title cos I know it will turn into a rant against the SWP just from the title even if it is an discussion I am interested in. Even threads that look like would have nothing to do with the internal workings etc of political parties turn into the same kind of rant / derailment. All in all UKP has become the most boring forum on the boards.

KoD

 

[butchersapron]

I'm fairly sure that one of the reasons for this is the accusation by some SWP members on here of a racist physical assault carried out by some posters and their mates - that sort of thing tends to sour relations somewhat - the heightened tension over the last week or so can squarely be put down to that shameful smear.

It's simply not true that we have a one-way process of endless attacks on the SWP, who are just sitting there all sunshine and light - a recognition of their culpability in this might help to calm things down. As would a retraction and an aplogy from those who have made this disgusting allegation.

 

[the B]

I'm fairly sure that one of the reasons for this is the accusation by some SWP members on here of a racist physical assault carried out by some posters and their mates - that sort of thing tends to sour relations somewhat - the heightened tension over the last week or so can squarely be put down to that shameful smear.

It's simply not true that we have a one-way process of endless attacks on the SWP, who are just sitting there all sunshine and light - a recognition of their culpability in this might help to calm things down. As would a retraction and an aplogy from those who have made this disgusting allegation.

It's this kind of dragging baggage from one thread to another in UK P&P that tends to make it a bit more difficult to read.

When I first started looking at the boards I found UKP interesting & when I signed on I posted now & then. In the last few weeks I have been far less likely to even look past the thread title cos I know it will turn into a rant against the SWP just from the title even if it is an discussion I am interested in. Even threads that look like would have nothing to do with the internal workings etc of political parties turn into the same kind of rant / derailment. All in all UKP has become the most boring forum on the boards.

No reason to believe that just because certain amounts of content in Uk P&P get moved - that the content of what will become 'UK Political Issues' will improve/change much. The people posting in it certainly won't...

 

[editor]

If I was the authoritarian, fascist ubermensch evil dictator editor that some people have accused me of, I'd make the new "SWP/trot/other tiny inconsequential leftie/righty party" forum the bin.

But if there's enough people endlessly fascinated by the movements and thoughts of a teensy-weensy handful of tedious people in tiny little obscure political groups, them they can have their own dull forum to talk and argue about their irrelevant 'news' and let P&P get on with the important stuff.

I still wish the SWP had the honesty to set up their own forums.

 

[butchersapron]

"It's this kind of dragging baggage from one thread to another in UK P&P that tends to make it a bit more difficult to read."

Put the blame where it lies then - on those making the accusation. If you're so bothered to clear up the forum, you should be dealing with issues like as well, but you're not - and why aren't you? Because you seem to only want a politics forum of hand-picked posters and topics. You want a politics forum with no politics.

And for what it's worth - your extended juvenile foot stamping session yesterday, you know - the one that you dragged from one thread onto another - is precisely the sort of thing you bang on about bring the P&P forums down. So remove the beam from your own eye brother - and stop being so fucking sanctimonious.

 

[the B]

"It's this kind of dragging baggage from one thread to another in UK P&P that tends to make it a bit more difficult to read."

Put the blame where it lies then - on those making the accusation. If you're so bothered to clear up the forum, you should be dealing with issues like as well, but you're not - and why aren't you? Because you seem to only want a politics forum of hand-picked posters and topics. You want a politics forum with no politics.

And for what it's worth - your extended juvenile foot stamping session yesterday, you know - the one that you dragged from one thread onto another - is precisely the sort of thing you bang on about bring the P&P forums down. So remove the beam from your own eye brother - and stop being so fucking sanctimonious.

Without dragging two other threads into this one...(or have you already? - of which one thread was a drag from another many threads relating to the racism accusations...)

Simple put, do you support the dragging of baggage from one thread to another?

 

[pilchardman]

I still wish the SWP had the honesty to set up their own forums.

But that would mean <gasp> abandoning entryism.

In fact, I strongly suspect layabout to be a Trot deep-entryist.

 

[editor]

But that would mean <gasp> abandoning entryism.

In fact, I strongly suspect layabout to be a Trot deep-entryist.

I'm sorry, but I've absolutely no idea what 'entryism' means and I've even less idea what a Trot deep-entryist is.

I'm clearly not hep enough to understand lefty-speak so I'd appreciate an explanation.

Ta!

 

[the B]

Entryism, by the SWP, amounts to infesting anything that isn't the SWP to either:

a) make it do as the SWP wishes

b) wreck it

 

[nosos]

Without dragging two other threads into this one...(or have you already? - of which one thread was a drag from another many threads relating to the racism accusations...)

Have you started taking drugs?

 

[pilchardman]

I'm sorry, but I've absolutely no idea what 'entryism' means and I've even less idea what a Trot deep-entryist is.

I'm clearly not hep enough to understand lefty-speak so I'd appreciate an explanation.

Ta!

It's a joke, Mike. And the butt was the Trots.

Entryism is flooding an organisation with Trots to get things going your way. A bit like the creatures in Alien.

Deep entryism is when you so skillfully disguise your beliefs in order to effect entryism, that no-one could guess you were an entryist. Many supposed right-wing Labour MPs were rumoured to have in fact been deep-entryist Trots.

 

[butchersapron]

Without dragging two other threads into this one...(or have you already? - of which one thread was a drag from another many threads relating to the racism accusations...)

Simple put, do you support the dragging of baggage from one thread to another?

Do you? If not why did you do it yesterday, and then have pop at me for doing the same. A measure of consistency instead of hypocrisy would be welcome from you.

I also have complete justification for bringing up the incident i did as it was direct response to KOD's point that she ahd noticed a rise in recent attacks on the SWP. I was offering an explanation outlining the temporary set of conditions that had led to this, and that it wasn't a generic feature of the forum. i.e it was relating to the immediate debate and was directly relavent..

To be criticised for contributing to a debate about the state of the P&P forums by making a point about the current state of the P&P forums seems a tad odd to me.

 

[the B]

I don't but sometimes, I do bad things...

As for your reply to KoD's post - you did more than state the position, you stated what you think they ought to do and provided a rather "one sided" story (one that I happen to find much more convincing than the trot story - but still...)

Anyway, I admit I sometimes drag stuff from thread to thread, I try not to - sometimes I fuck up.

I'd say I've caught a plague of baggage carrying from others in UK P&P...but enough of this and back to the matter at hand (in the thread title) if that's ok with you BA...

 

[editor]

Many supposed right-wing Labour MPs were rumoured to have in fact been deep-entryist Trots.

Don't you think that sounds a bit, you know, dirty and sexual?

Oooh! i was up all night with a deep-entryist Trot. The things we got up to!

 

[pilchardman]

Don't you think that sounds a bit, you know, dirty and sexual?

Yup.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't but sometimes, I do bad things...

As for your reply to KoD's post - you did more than state the position, you stated what you think they ought to do and provided a rather "one sided" story (one that I happen to find much more convincing than the trot story - but still...)

Anyway, I admit I sometimes drag stuff from thread to thread, I try not to - sometimes I fuck up.

I'd say I've caught a plague of baggage carrying from others in UK P&P...but enough of this and back to the matter at hand (in the thread title) if that's ok with you BA...

You mean ignore my point?

 

[ernestolynch]

Is 'the B' interested in politics now?

 

[the B]

You mean ignore my point?

Which one?

 

[the B]

Is 'the B' interested in politics now?

Is Ernie?

 

[ernestolynch]

Which one?

 

[the B]

 

[butchersapron]

Which one?

The one about the recent upsurge in SWP themed threads being something to do with the appalling behaviour of some of their members - and that it could be calmed down for the general good of the forum by those concerned retracting and apologising for accsuing others of racially motivated assault. Because, for one so concerned with the health of the forum you seem awfully quiet about something so damaging to the long term atmosphere.

An attempt to lower the tension without taking any drastic measures if you will.