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STWC - a lost opportunity

I watching the coverage of the GWB demos on the TV at the weekend and I was struck by just how many people have abandoned the STWC and its front groups and offshoots.

A campaign that got millions out on the streets has dwindled to just a few thousand tops and who's only memorable personalities are a dodgy cat impersonating politician (Galloway) and an obsessed tramp (Brian Haw).

So many people saw back in 01 - 03 that invading Iraq would be a disaster and they have been proved sadly right.

So what happened to the millions who turned up in Feb 03. Some were merely there as a one off but I wonder how many people turned up at the STWC meetings after the demos only to be confronted by a harraguing trot or a Hamas apologist and in disgust thought 'fuck this for a game of soldiers' and fucked off abandoning not only the short term objective of putting pressure on Blair but also tainting their view of large scale activism per se.

My view is that a lot of good could have come out of the STWC in the aftermath of the Feb 03 demo but for various reasons this surge in support wasn't nurtured instead it was squandered.

Its fucking sad how such a large movement could be reduced to a pale shadow of its former self primarily because of the actions of the leaders of the movement.

Even if the Iraq issue was a lost cause this support could have been helped to support anti privatisation and pro community causes but it wasn't and thats the great shame.

I'd be more likely to drop out cos of sterile , pompous , SUSPECT wankers like you tbh ,spreading the gospel of division and inaction at all costs - personally I dont want to have anything to do with your sort , politically or otherwise .
 
I watching the coverage of the GWB demos on the TV at the weekend and I was struck by just how many people have abandoned the STWC and its front groups and offshoots.

A campaign that got millions out on the streets has dwindled to just a few thousand tops and who's only memorable personalities are a dodgy cat impersonating politician (Galloway) and an obsessed tramp (Brian Haw).

So many people saw back in 01 - 03 that invading Iraq would be a disaster and they have been proved sadly right.

So what happened to the millions who turned up in Feb 03. Some were merely there as a one off but I wonder how many people turned up at the STWC meetings after the demos only to be confronted by a harraguing trot or a Hamas apologist and in disgust thought 'fuck this for a game of soldiers' and fucked off abandoning not only the short term objective of putting pressure on Blair but also tainting their view of large scale activism per se.

My view is that a lot of good could have come out of the STWC in the aftermath of the Feb 03 demo but for various reasons this surge in support wasn't nurtured instead it was squandered.

Its fucking sad how such a large movement could be reduced to a pale shadow of its former self primarily because of the actions of the leaders of the movement.

Even if the Iraq issue was a lost cause this support could have been helped to support anti privatisation and pro community causes but it wasn't and thats the great shame.

Hmmm. Banging on about how 'leftwing' you are, yet obsessed with criticizing Stop the War, Brian Haw, CND, Trots, Ken Livingstone...:rolleyes:

You're wasted on these boards, KBJ, have you ever thought of writing for Harry's Place? :hmm:
 
They certainly didn't drop out because of "trots" and "Hamas apologists". I've never heard any real person who started off going on marches (and now doesn't) even mention either. They say "what's the point? It's not doing anything, marching, they just ignore it". As you say, a broader approach might have helped there, and still could.

Which is why DU’s argument about a rolling series of marches is of the mark. So in may view is the DA argument, you can get 1,000,000 + on a demo in London you’d be very lucky to get 10,000 + to blockade an airbase.

I think the biggest tactical error made was it not getting an electoral alternative of the ground quick enough. Elections are still where most people are at politically and this had to be the next step for the STWC.
 
Old Post 1

I think the argument about the ant-war movement is a bit simplistic at times, on one hand you have the SWP and a few others saying it was a wonderful success and on the other you have most anarchist and some others saying it was a dismal failure and the world would have been a better place without the STWC. It has been successful just not earth shatteringly so, ok so it didn’t stop the war but did anyone think it would?

Split into two post as I was 55 characters over
 
Old Post 2

Those who accuse it of being a total failure often counterpoise alternative tactics as opposed to endless A to B marches they claim that if only the STWC had adopted there position everything would have been great the war would have been stopped, Tony Blair would have turned into a dove and flown round the globe leaving noting but peace and joy in his wake and all the oceans of the world would have turned to lemonade. Well I don’t think so, the two most common alternatives are that the STWC should have focused on direct action mainly at military bases (Menwith [SP] hill etc) and the other (mainly from workers power) is that it should have focused on trying to organise strike action.

Personally I agree with workers power that the only why we could have truly stopped the war would have been by significant strike action. Unfortunately I think we have to be realistic and accept that we are not in a situation where that was viable. There where a few walk outs on the day war broke out Cockney rebel tells us that a WP member got a ballet strike against the war and most significant where the rail workers in Scotland who refused to transport arms. Good though all these things where truth is that on a national scale they where insignificant even if ten times more people where involved it would still have had very little impact. We are in a period of very low industrial struggle (although that does seem to be changing recently) when people aren’t striking over the normal things strike are for (pay and conditions, job losses ect) what are the chances of them striking against war? Especially as it is hard to see how shutting down B&Q for a day would have much impact on the government, it wouldn’t of course unless lots of other places shut down at the same time. The anti-war movement was no where near deep enough or rooted enough to achieve a significant amount of strike action it would take a great deal of work over large amount of time by a large number of activists to achieve that time and activists where what the STWC lacked.*

Now for the direct action issue, I’m going to be honest I fail to see any significant difference between this and a demonstration. Both of them essentially boil down to an attempt to vocalise disagreement over the war and to achieve a degree of notice and publicity. Neither has any real impact on the government or the war effort beyond public relations. Those who argue that it would be possible to shut down military basis and thus impede the war effort are I think deluding themselves if they think they could achieve any significant impact. It is also argued that direct action is more empowering than demonstrations; it is sometimes even argued that demonstrations are disempowering. I think the mistake those who argue this make is that this is how they fell about these things and they generalise to assume the effect would be they same for everyone. I can tell you that for me personally the reverse is true. I feel far more confident and powerful on a demonstration than when taking part in direct action, admittedly my experience of DA is less than those who argue it empowers them but if the water is to cold when you dip you toe in why fully immerse yourself? Don’t get me wrong I do think DA plays a role but it is a complementary one not an alternative one and for those of you who want to focus purely on DA good luck I hope you are successfully but I won’t join you on most of your actions, sorry.

Another argument and the one I have the most sympathy with is that instead of focusing on getting tens of thousands of people to go to London the STWC should have held demonstration outside military basis to blockade them, I would not argue against this as long it was not proposed as an alternative to London demonstrations it would only have made sense during the war however. I think there would be dangers with this though for one thing turnout would be much smaller both because it is easer to get people to demonstrate in London than a muddy field and as any demonstration will draw in locals from the town or city where it is held people who either can’t or wont travel you lose these people if you move the demo to a military base. There is also the chance of putting people of who don’t like the idea of something so directly confrontational either because politically they think nice peaceful strolls through London are the way to go or because while they may support the action they personally lack the confidence to take part, a few years ago I would have fallen into this group. This is why while a demonstration at a military base would have had its place a London demonstration would still have been important. One advantage of the military base demo would be that if it split into those who blockade the road and those who stand to one side and demonstrate it would have allowed people to choose of how far they are prepared to go something lacking in London demonstrations.

Now what are the successes and problems of the STWC? The problem is easy too little time and too few activists. On time it was inevitable that once the war began the movement would subside the same was true after the inevitable US/UK ‘victory’ while the run up to the war did produce an incredible amount of anger against it; it was as other people have pointed out rather shallow had the build up taken longer and had there been more activists then there might have been a chance of developing something deeper and more rooted. Now that the situation has settled into an occupation there is a chance that the anger will surface again overtime and as the occupation will be more protracted than the war there will be a greater chance of the STWC growing real roots, (EDIT: OK this never happened) it’s worth noting that in my local STW group people who disappeared not long after the war started where involved in organisation transportation for the demo last week. The main problem faced by the STWC though fails out of the issue of the shallowness of the movement and that is too few activists, yea I know this is about tenth millionth time I’ve mentioned this but find it hard to get away from. It’s fair to assume that the Feb 15 demo was built by less than 10,000 people plus the daily mirror (although its impact may be overstated slightly, I did not receive many more phone calls after they printed my number than before) last Saturdays probably had less than 4,000 people building it. I feel this is a very small number of activists relative to a large number of demonstrators and I think this makes it hard for the STWC to properly relate to the anti-war felling. This is where I see the argument about the pacifying effect of demonstrations as coming from I just think that people who are prepared to be activists against the war will go further in there attempts to stop it, simply but DA wont turn all those people who go on demonstrations into activist because they just wont turn up.

So what are the success of the ant-war movement, this to be honest is the most difficult part of this post as it is easy to say that we did not stop the war and therefore we failed. However I never thought we could stop the war so I will not measure success or failure by that yardstick, you may be able to argue that we changed the way Blair conducted the war but they is no real way to prove that one way or the other. Anyway here’s my attempt. First the smallest demonstration against the Iraq war was probably ten times larger than the biggest demonstration against the Balkans war, there is probably a core of about 50,000 who regularly turn out on demonstrations, this is a huge step forward for what I would loosely define as progressive politics. Secondly despite my comment that the anti-war movement was shallow I do feel that there is a deeper understanding of the root cause of the war (US imperialism) many people see it as about trying to stop the expansion of US power as well as just saving people from being bombed. I also think the strength of the movement has resulted in considerable pressure on Blair and the labour government, the current fuss about Goldsmiths legal advice for example do people thing this would me the news story it is without the ant-war movement and the STWC do you think Howard and Kennedy would have made as much out of it? The success of the STWC so far is that it existed that it still exists and will continue to exist, that it involved many thousands of people in activity against the war and may well do so again, that it applied enough pressure to the government that the bent a long way even if it did not break, not yet anyway. But as we move into an Orwellian period of perpetually war how can we truly judge if the STWC has failed or not, the final analysis will have to be done many years in the future.

There is more I could say but I have things to do and it has taken me ages to write this, what’s more I’m going to see my parents for Easter so won’t even be able to respond to ant reply’s for a few days, oh well.

*I fell I should explain what I mean by an activist here I’m not talking about someone from outside the workplace or someone with decades of campaigning experience. Just someone who instead of just sitting there thinking god the war is shit they start think about what can they do about it, they start to argue with there workmates both to persuade those who are already against the war to do something about it (and therefore create more activists) and to try an persuade the rest why they should be against the war and finally to try and organise strike action. There where too few people who did this.
 
this shit really fucks me off

fucking stop the war

FUCK OFF

it'\s; fucking BUSINESS you dopey fucking cunts BUSINESS

how many of you dopey fucking cunts turned up when the copper in newcastle ran that lass over a couple of weeks ago

if however many fuckers turned up in london to help all the fucked up kids who turn up at the train stations and end up homeless you might make a difference against business

i bet half you cunts spent a lot of money going to stop the war

you are part of the problem you dippy fucking twats. stop what war? you mean stop business making a profit? how are you going to do that? get the train there

Stop the War Coalition is part of the problem if you want to stop the war go and assasinate some random guy in a nice shirt in the city of london, and leave a not saying why. if everyone did that the war might stop. if a bunch of scruffy fucking teenagers go and walk about yelling no war do you really think anyone gives a fuck. doesn't matter if there are more than ever, that is cos there are more dopey fucking teenagers than ever since half of the teenagers since the era of morrisey havent grown up
 
For one night only, let hope so.

So war is about business making profits really I never realised that before, I always thought it was just bad men wanting to hurt people. Of course now you’ve explained it I have more reason to oppose war not less. Thank you.
 
For one night only, let hope so.

So war is about business making profits really I never realised that before, I always thought it was just bad men wanting to hurt people. Of course now you’ve explained it I have more reason to oppose war not less. Thank you.


well lets just hope people like you can go on waving placards and congratulating yourself on doing so

you didn't even read the whole thing you fucking dipshit
 
well lets just hope people like you can go on waving placards and congratulating yourself on doing so

you didn't even read the whole thing you fucking dipshit

Your post? yes i did i choose to only respond to part of it :confused:

To be fair it was the one part of your post that had some merit
 
Oh come on - the leadership was made up of SWP, CND, labour MPs and councillors ,other leading lefties like Galloway and John Stalinist and various leftwing media types. They had networks, thousands of activists on their membership lists, budgets, connections etc - its facile to suggest that ordinary non-affiliated activists with their own ideas could have anyhting approaching their influence no matter how good their ideas.
Does it occur to you that the reason the DA people had so little influence is that only a small proportion of the antiwar movement actually agreed with them?

You can advise any course of action you want, but at the end of the day, if you don't have enough people agreeing with you then you can't expect it to happen. Denouncing the leadership for not adopting an unpopular policy is a way of refusing to see this.

It's funny - I remember when I first came on Urban75 and P&P (and frankly much of the rest of the board) was full of DA and anarchist people screaming, endlessly, at STWC. None of these people were prevented from organising any direct action they felt like, or from encouraging other people to joint them, but instead, they preferred to shout at the Trots. Yet it was obvious to the experienced eye that in fact, they resembled the very thing they were denouncing - that certain sort of far-left un pleasantness which involves screaming at everybody else for betrayal and ingoring the fact that the reason their preferred policy isn't followed is primarily that most people don't want to.

If you want people to follow you, convince them. Don't expect other people to do the job for you. Other people may diasgree with you. They may be right or they may be wrong. But if what you say is unpopular, sometimes you just have to accept that rather than making yourself unpleasant as well.
 
grow up, you odious little shit.

Do fuck off theres a good chap.

An obsessed tramp is how many Haw is percived outside of the activist bubble. If you are going to have someone going out on limb like BH at least make sure that they are coherent.
 
The STWC was too cautious about supporting and/or orgnasing dirtect action. They concentrated on bums on buses whilst sidelinging more effective action. As a result they ignored by the government and consequently many people were totally dissillusioned with the whole notion of protesting and campaigning.

Yup. I did see some attempted direct action but all it was was the leading swappie for the area deliberately getting herself arrested so that she could boast about it (or more sinisterly so she could report to her police handler) .
 
Well, yes. You do have a point.

However, the machinery of the STWC would have been against it. I've had my own proposals for DA against the invasion of Afghanistan shouted down, so have first hand experience of how the weight of the bureaucracy can be used to isolate such suggestions from "the movement".

.

First of all I can quite happily separate the issues of Afghanistan and Iraq. There was political and military justification for the Afghan invasion which was missing from the Iraq one.

As regards Iraq I remember being pointedly ignored at a STWC in Barking when I stood up to suggest that some form of boycott of the Sun and other Iraq invasion positive should be undertaken and mentioned the success of the Liverpool Sun boycott.

Everything was geared up to getting feet marching in ever diminishing A to B marches.
 
Tenders are invited for deconstruction of this passage, with a bonus to the successful bidder should they be able to render it comprehensibly.

Whoops!

Should read.

'a boycott of the Sun and other newspapers who were pushing a pro Iraq invasion line'

Typing and eating breakfast not a good combination.
 
Whoops!

Should read.

'a boycott of the Sun and other newspapers who were pushing a pro Iraq invasion line'

Typing and eating breakfast not a good combination.
Also, talking and not thinking.

One of the great advantages of the "scream at the leadership" technique, which is a sort of saloon-bar ranting of the left, is that - like blaming "bureaucrats" for everything - it helps avoid both the practicalities involved and the question of whether people may, actually, honestly diagree with you.

To my mind - and I think to any rational mind - a comparison with the post-Hillsborough piece boycott is ludicrous. Liverpool: outraged by the piece, high sales of the Sun there, people running around suggesting a boycott. Hence, good prospects for aforesaid boycott. Iraq: no particular outrage, sales of Sun not high in antiwar movement, boycott not high on people's list of priorities. Hence, not very good prospects for boycott.

This doesn't seem to me to be any more than a statement of the bleedin' obvious, but that's what obsessiveness does to people: they cannot see what is bleedin' obvious. Everything has to be conspiracies and betrayals. Same as the view from the saloon bar.
 
Also, talking and not thinking.

One of the great advantages of the "scream at the leadership" technique, which is a sort of saloon-bar ranting of the left, is that - like blaming "bureaucrats" for everything - it helps avoid both the practicalities involved and the question of whether people may, actually, honestly diagree with you.

To my mind - and I think to any rational mind - a comparison with the post-Hillsborough piece boycott is ludicrous. Liverpool: outraged by the piece, high sales of the Sun there, people running around suggesting a boycott. Hence, good prospects for aforesaid boycott. Iraq: no particular outrage, sales of Sun not high in antiwar movement, boycott not high on people's list of priorities. Hence, not very good prospects for boycott.

This doesn't seem to me to be any more than a statement of the bleedin' obvious, but that's what obsessiveness does to people: they cannot see what is bleedin' obvious. Everything has to be conspiracies and betrayals. Same as the view from the saloon bar.

I disagree. There were a lot of people in Barking STWC meetings who had a lot of contacts / family etc in the newspaper distribution trade. An ideal opportunity for action but the leadership quickly sidelined the idea.

There was a lot that could have been done not only to boost the anti Iraq war movement but to build on the support and help other areas as well.

One thing I did notice was how quickly the STWC's mass support died away. Much quicker than how CND's mass support in the 80's died out.

Also, there seemed to be a lot of non pacifists like myself who got pissed off with the constant 'all military action is evil' simplistic line pushed by some in the STWC. I used to be a pacifist but then I grew up. Sometimes you have to fight its just that Iraq wasn't one of those times.

Saloon bar?? I'm more Public Bar and Beer Garden myself :)
 
i have no idea what standards the Jockey refers to, but I am positive we can all be certain that he thinks he more than meets them. But that virtually no one else does :( Which is probably the SWP's fault as well

'truth, evidence, or proportionality.' Was what Donna said.

Well I've told the truth about my experiences of the Swapps and their front groups.

I've given evidence where I can

and its proportional in so far as the criticisism is deserved.
 
Dear god! having just taken ScabBoardJockey off ignore - what a horrendous mess of contradictory positions and statements he is coming out with! seems like everyone got it wrong and was to blame - the trots, the stalinists, the quaker, the anarchists, the.....you name it.

Damn you everybody! Why did you have to ruin it for.......mmmm, errr, whose left?
 
Well I've told the truth about my experiences of the Swapps and their front groups.
I dooubt you'd know the truth if it hit you very hard in the face.

Anyway, welcome back to ignore, you have nothing of use or note to say, apart from more self-pitying, self-serving shite.
 
Dear god! having just taken ScabBoardJockey off ignore - what a horrendous mess of contradictory positions and statements he is coming out with! seems like everyone got it wrong and was to blame - the trots, the stalinists, the quaker, the anarchists, the.....you name it.

Contradictory do me a favour! the trots and the stalinists do have to shoulder the blame for the failure of the STWC. Anarchists well they couldn't organise their way out of a paper bag and they do have a bit of an image probllem as well. Quakers I have lot of time and respect for but disagree with their position of total pacifism on the grounds that WWII showed that pacifism fails in the face of monstrosities..

I think that some of the failiure of the stwc is down to inertia but a large proportion of the blame needs to be laid at the door of those organisations who ran the organisation into the ground.
 
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