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Study Claims Iraq's 'Excess' Death Toll Has Reached 655,000

TeeJay said:
I have seen many people, in many places - including u75 - claiming that 100,000 people have been killed as a result of the invasion of Iraq.
(My bold.)

The truth, unfortunately, for those of us morose enough to actually care about trying to establish the truth, looks more likely to be that the "running total" is getting closer to a half million now.

Would someone do a puke smiley for me please.

:( just doesn't quite do it for me any more.

Woof
 
slaar said:
Teejay I don't see how that is relevant. Nobody on this thread is claiming any of those things, and the Lancet paper takes account of all of them, breaking down figures into US/UK kills, insurgency, natural death etc and by gunfire, car bombing etc.

There's an appalling Guardian article here:

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/michael_white/2006/10/post_501.html

*Bangs head against desk and starts weeping*

Hmmmmmm.


And here was me thinking that multiple regression was some kind of past lives hypnotherapyquackery.

Oh well.

;)

Fancy a gin & tonic sometime slaar, or a pint of London Pride, or summat?

:)


Woof
 
Daniel Davies said:
The people who started this war of aggression need to face up to the fact, and that is a political issue.

And we need to face up to the fact that waging a war of aggression is exactly what got the Nuremberg defendants hanged.
 
TeeJay said:
vWe don't apply the same kind of logic to public health and mortality figures in the UK so why be so sloppy and brain-dead just because we are dealing with a political football like the Iraq war?

If people were to start getting into detailed discussions about statistical methods every time a statistic appeared, these would be the most boring discussion forums on the whole planet.
 
Yossarian said:
If people were to start getting into detailed discussions about statistical methods every time a statistic appeared, these would be the most boring discussion forums on the whole planet.

Wasn't it the Lancet that somehow figured out that one million children had been killed by the sanctions?
 
Donna Ferentes said:
Useful piece explaining why objections are largely spurious.
I read that article earlier but maybe you could remind me what it says about the following problems with the figures:

1. The mis-match between the lower "baseline" (pre-invasion) figures and higher UN, NGO and anti-embargo-campainger figures about mortaility rates prior to the invasion.

2. Problems with actually being able to do proper random sampling when the census figures are so unreliable, when populations have been moving around and when the security situation is so hostile.

3. In interpreting the figures - the stark discontinuities across regions of Iraq ie far higher to the north and west of Baghdad, by age, gender and other group - ends up giving utterly ridiculous figures for the worst affected areas. Obviously something has gone wrong in this study.

4. Implicit assumptions of bell curves and normal distributions contained within the study.

5. The lack of bodies: where are they?

6. Given that the study claims that 92% of deaths were backed up by death certificates, why is there such a large mismatch between these numbers and the Iraqi ministry of health and figures from other Iraqi bodies - the very bodies that issue death certiicates in the first place. There is something going here that doesn't add up, yet the study doesn't even address this at all, simply taking certificates at face value.

7. The total lack of analysis of possible motivations for over reporting of fatalities - for example political views, an awareness of the reasons behind the survey and possible compensation for fatalities. The survey simply dismisses a whole range of questions out of hand, assuming that pe3ople are giving accurate information or are being totally honest.

8. Finally, and most importantly, the study itself hints at various conclusions being drawn - about cause and effect, the role of US/UK forces and various other value judgements and political viewpoints whicn are largely out of place within a so-called neutral survey.

This is taken even further by the media and people with a view on the desirability or otherwise of US/UK foreign policy - in other words the survey itself seems to contain bias and a 'view' in its commentary and jumps to various conclusions within its text. Various people have already started using this survey to make claims that go beyond what even the survey itself makes, and the Lancet's editor is looking more and more like a tabloid editor rather than impartial medical science publisher.

The problems with this survey don't primarily revolve around details regression analysis or the statistical techniques used, and you don't have to look very far in science to see people making massive mistakes because they simply plough ahead with theoretically "correct" techniques but mess up some other very basic parametres and reality checks. Pseudo-scientists often are the most dangerous as they are so blind to the wider context and such unquestioning faith in their mechanical 'techniques' that they produce utter drivel without even realising or admitting they have done so.
 
Yossarian said:
If people were to start getting into detailed discussions about statistical methods every time a statistic appeared, these would be the most boring discussion forums on the whole planet.
Seeing as this whole fucking thread is about statistics maybe you should take yourself off to another most amusing thread - maybe something about grindcore vs dubstep or how many grapes you can fit up your nose?
 
So why do you think it is that statistics about Iraq in particular are the ones that tend to bring all the amateur statisticians out of the woodwork?
 
I really don't give a fuck and I am not going to go down that sidetrack. If you want to actually discuss the figures themselves then fine. If not then you can talk to yourself.
 
Wow, an invitation to talk about numbers with some guy on the Internet in a pissy mood! Who says Friday the 13th is unlucky! :D
 
There are plenty of other threads for you to entertain yourself with. I don't like football but I don't post in the sports forum complaining that the threads about football there are "boring". This thread is all about some statistics. If you find the topic boring then why not go and post on a different thread? :rolleyes:
 
laptop said:
Where?

Distribution of what?
Isn't that how you get the "most probable" figure and the confidence intervals? By assuming a certain distribution pattern?

...The first issue here: Iraq's pre-war mortality rate. The first Johns Hopkins study from 2004 pegged it at five per every 1,000 population, based on what those interviewed recalled. This one was 5.5/1,000.

But UN reports had suggested Iraq's crude death rate was higher than this in the 1980s and '90s. It was in at least the 6.8/1,000 range and rising, which would make the difference between normal deaths and what the researchers called "excess deaths" brought about by the war quite a bit smaller.

The other issue here is what statisticians call the "confidence interval."

In their first study in 2004, the confidence interval was huge: The Johns Hopkins team basically concluded that it had 95-per-cent confidence the war had caused somewhere between 8,000 and 194,000 extra deaths by that point. Its 100,000 figure was the most probable number on this large continuum, which of course assumes violent deaths in Iraq can be plotted on the same bell curve as, say, breast cancer rates in North America...
source: Iraq's death toll, the numbers debate
 
TeeJay said:
Isn't that how you get the "most probable" figure and the confidence intervals? By assuming a certain distribution pattern?

As I thought, you've either not read or not understood the Guardian blog piece linked above, and are not thinking for yourself about the statistics or the study.

To help you: To the extent that there's a distribution involved, it's a distribution over possible worlds: from the one in which the sampling accidentally picked up all the fatalities, through to the one in which it accidentally picked up all and only the families with the lowest numbers of fatalities, or some other extreme under-estimate.

So, yes, there's a kind of a built-in assumption there: that Iraq is a part of a universe in which numbers behave as they do elsewhere :) Nothing to do with the methodology.

And to help you some more: the Guardian blog piece points out that the detected increase in mortality is so significant (and huge) that confidence intervals are rather beside the point, especially with respect to the media-report-derived estimates.
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Wasn't it the Lancet that somehow figured out that one million children had been killed by the sanctions?

Yep – and that number does seem a little big and round, but the important thing to take away from that study was that American sanctions had clearly led to a big increase in infant mortality in Iraq, quibbling over exact statistics aside.
 
laptop said:
As I thought, you've either not read or not understood the Guardian blog piece linked above, and are not thinking for yourself about the statistics or the study.

To help you: To the extent that there's a distribution involved, it's a distribution over possible worlds: from the one in which the sampling accidentally picked up all the fatalities, through to the one in which it accidentally picked up all and only the families with the lowest numbers of fatalities, or some other extreme under-estimate.

So, yes, there's a kind of a built-in assumption there: that Iraq is a part of a universe in which numbers behave as they do elsewhere :) Nothing to do with the methodology.

And to help you some more: the Guardian blog piece points out that the detected increase in mortality is so significant (and huge) that confidence intervals are rather beside the point, especially with respect to the media-report-derived estimates.
Indeed, the set of all possible sample estimates always approaches a normal distribution with increasing sample size whatever the underlying distribution, it's a beautiful result of the central limit theorem. No assumptions going on there, other than ones about the ultimate nature of numbers.
 
Horse shit. Some things have a 'normal distribution' others have lopsided distributions. Yes there are assumptions going on and no it isn't anything to do with "the nature of numbers".

laptop, I am looking forward to your comments about the other 7 points I raised.

As someone who usually prides themslf on being conversant with scientific studies, I am surprised you haven't made any comment about the wisdom of accepting a single study that so radically flies in the face of all the other evidence, on which has produced such an 'outlier' result and which has raises several glaring inconsistencies.

Take your time and 'think abhout it for yourself' maybe?
 
One has to ask why TeeJay objects to these latest figures. He never seems to offer any explanation other than to nitpick over statistics.

Is he not concerend about the unnecessary deaths that have occured as a result of this ill-planned adventure? No, not unless he can summon forth some meaningless statistics to support his 'thesis'.
 
TeeJay said:
laptop, I am looking forward to your comments about the other 7 points I raised.

Why spend the time? Your raising one "objection" that demonstrates that you have no understanding of the central limit theorem [ta, slaar] in turn demonstrates that you are merely hoovering up nit-picks from the web.

Other points you quote do the same but in ways that take more effort to describe - for example the regional distribution of sample sites is pretty much irrelevant.

It would indeed be a good idea to replicate the study. Or to conduct an experiment: withdraw the occupying forces and conduct two independent surveys to see what the effect is.

You're making like climate change deniers - or "intelligent design" advocates - "I don't understand all this so what I say must be true".
 
nino_savatte said:
One has to ask why TeeJay objects to these latest figures. He never seems to offer any explanation other than to nitpick over statistics.
The figures *are* statistics. Objecting to them or accepting means discussing if they are valid. You seem to be suggesting that you can either support or reject them without even caring if they are true or not, and regardless of how valid they are.
Is he not concerend about the unnecessary deaths that have occured as a result of this ill-planned adventure? No, not unless he can summon forth some meaningless statistics to support his 'thesis'.
Go fuck yourself moron. I am concerned about people being killed - by Saddam's oppression and wars and through neglect. I am concerned about people not being freedom to choose their government or free to live their lives how they choose to.

You think the number of people dying in Iraq is "meaningless"?

Fucking idiot. There isn't much point trying to debate anything with you really is there?
 
Donna Ferentes said:
Ah, no it doesn't. Remember that other studies measure other things.
This figure is contradicted by a lot of other evidence. Maybe you could systematically go through the 8 points I raised and answer some of them?

Do you really believe that this is the correct figure and all the other figures are not just wrong, but wrong by a vast order of magnitude?

This study claims that 2.5% of Iraqis have been killed, but since the bulk of this figure falls on men between 15 and 59, and the rate of violence is far greater in areas to the north and west of Baghdad, this implies that very large percentage of males aged 15 to 59 in these areas have been killed. Don't you find it strange that noone noticed or reported this before now? Don't you even have any questions about how accurate this survey result is? Don't you even want to run it by a 'reality check' and compare it with other sources of information?
 
TeeJay said:
The figures *are* statistics. Objecting to them or accepting means discussing if they are valid. You seem to be suggesting that you can either support or reject them without even caring if they are true or not, and regardless of how valid they are.Go fuck yourself moron. I am concerned about people being killed - by Saddam's oppression and wars and through neglect. I am concerned about people not being freedom to choose their government or free to live their lives how they choose to.

You think the number of people dying in Iraq is "meaningless"?

Fucking idiot. There isn't much point trying to debate anything with you really is there?

I thought you had me on ignore, cunt. You're not only a nitpicking sod, you're a liar.

You are disputing the figures produced by the Lancet for god-only-knows what purpose. And that about sums you up, TeeJay: you're a mindless nitpicker who will come along and shove pointless stats in people's faces in an effort to prove yourself intellectually superior or to take the other side, simply for the sake of being awkward.

I think the Lancet has consistently proved itself to be reputable when it comes to producing such figures. Funny how no one questioned their figures for Sierra Leone or The DRC - eh? Why Iraq?

How the fuck do you live with yourself?
 
TeeJay said:
I'll take this reply to mean that you have no answers to the points in question. ;)


Not only a mindless nitpicker and a liar but a smug fucker too.

Did you have a problem with The Lancet's study of Sierra Leone and the DRC too?
 
There isn't much point trying to debate anything with you really is there?
No, not unless you've studied statistics. You are basically calling a lot of people liars, and you don't realise it.
 
TeeJay said:
Do you really believe that this is the correct figure and all the other figures are not just wrong, but wrong by a vast order of magnitude?
But other figures measure different things, TeeJay. So they're not "wrong" at all. This study does not contradict them as far as I can see.

I have some scepticism about the figure, but the methodology itself is sound. And it would have to be very badly wrong indeed for the figure not to be, say, at least half the figure given.

Apologies if I don't have time for your eight points, I have other stuff on today. No offence.
 
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