Stop the War? Pull the other one..

[grogwilton]

nigel i wasnt involved in internal debate on the left during those school strikes, so i dont know who started organising the strikes.

but i do remember going on an anti war demo in oxford before feb 15th, and there were loads of swp stickers saying 'on the day war breaks out strike occupy protest'

is it really possible that no school students read these? i think your claim that isr was the only organisation pushing strongly for school strikes and that stw (and by implication swp) were trying to damp down school student strikes is a bit far fetched.

 

[kyser_soze]

It's not a matter of people being as callous as you, more likely most people aren't aware of demos until the media decide to mention it, very conveniently, on the day.

Not at all - a lot of the people I talked to on F15 were more than a little annoyed to see Free Palenstine and mutliple issue banners on what had been billed as an anti-Iraq war march, so it's not entirely unbelievable that the impression of any future marches being people by multi-issue folks like the lovely Nigel may well have put them off.

That and the fact that

a. It's a waste of time

b. Even tho many agree with 'troops out' the Iraq war is not especially high on most people's agendas, with domestic issues like employment, health, education and L&O dominating...as usual really.

 

[changingman]

yeh. but it's small beer compared to what we have been repeatedly told would happen.

It still hasn't happened. Wait for the dirty bomb.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

but i do remember going on an anti war demo in oxford before feb 15th, and there were loads of swp stickers saying 'on the day war breaks out strike occupy protest'

The first wave of school student strikes took place well before "the day war breaks out", so if those stickers had anything to do with them somebody, somewhere would have had to have psychic powers.

The Day X school walkouts were a second wave of the same thing - by that stage it was widely accepted in the anti-war movement that they (a) could happen and (b) could have an impact. Although some organisations still prioritised organising them much more than other groups (with the SWP in the latter category).

 

[Sorry.]

It still hasn't happened. Wait for the dirty bomb.

the dirty bomb that appears to be a logistical nonsense?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Exactly. QED.

One person agrees with me! QED!

 

[grogwilton]

i only knew of 2 school walk outs, those on the day the war broke out, and those on the day before that. at the time and still i havent heard of any others, and that wasnt for lack of trying, that was back in the day were i was an eager fresh recruit for the left, reading anything anyone put in my hand.

 

[grogwilton]

It still hasn't happened. Wait for the dirty bomb.

dirty bombs arent dangerous at all, all they are is a regular explosion, which spreads radioactive material over a certain area. the resulting slightly radioactive area gives you a higher risk of cancer. if you live there. and if the site isnt cleaned up.

 

[flimsier]

i only knew of 2 school walk outs, those on the day the war broke out, and those on the day before that. at the time and still i havent heard of any others, and that wasnt for lack of trying, that was back in the day were i was an eager fresh recruit for the left, reading anything anyone put in my hand.

Me too. Are you claiming there were loads before this NI?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Me too. Are you claiming there were loads before this NI?

Yes.

The first large wave of school student strikes took place on the 5th and 7th of March 2003 and involved thousands. (A smaller wave had taken place a week earlier in Scotland initiated by the SSP). The second wave of school student strikes was on Day X and was built on the success of the first. I wasn't aware that this straightforward historical fact was in contention.

On the same days up to 10,000 walked out in Northern Ireland, by the way.

 

[changingman]

dirty bombs arent dangerous at all, all they are is a regular explosion, which spreads radioactive material over a certain area. the resulting slightly radioactive area gives you a higher risk of cancer. if you live there. and if the site isnt cleaned up.

Oh that's alright then. I shall look forward to it. Maybe get some beers in for the big event.

What's all this crap about school strikes doing on my thread? Just seems to back up my point about dragging in irrelevant "ishoos"...

 

[kyser_soze]

I'm always amused by the concept of schoolkids striking and taking the day off school.

I mean let's face it - how many were actually 'RAH!!!' and how many were like 'Yeah! Day off skool!!!'

 

[pin retaining]

Find me a march that is basically saying The War Was Wrong ( in fact it is fucking immoral) and I'll go on it. And so will about 300,000 other people.

Well put.

 

[X-77]

I'm a bit thick so I don't get the ref, to '95 RIP'. Can u pls enlighten me?

british troops killed I took it to mean...there's a pic of him in this account of Saturday:

http://opendemocracy.typepad.com/wsf/2005/09/marching_for_ju.html

(just over half way down page)

 

[X-77]

I abhor nationalism of all stripes (English, Irish; Israeli, Palestinian) so wouldn't be seen dead with a Union Jack.

so if you abhor nationalism then why were you only marching because of the effects that a war would have on your own country? People in other countries being bombed by your own country (and a heck of a lot more than 52 to say the least) doesn't seem to bother you on quite the same scale, does it? Why's that then?

I marched in 2003 primarily because, along with many others, I could see that rubbing salt into the wound of global Islamic fundamentalism, by invading Iraq, would only put Britain top of the list of potential terrorist targets

 

[changingman]

so if you abhor nationalism then why were you only marching because of the effects that a war would have on your own country

You're making a lot of assumptions there.
1. i wasn't ONLY marching because of etc etc. if u read my post it says "primarily".
2. it's not the effects on the country i'm concerned about, it's the effects on the people who live in it.
3. and i am very concerned, like many others, about the violence being wreaked (wrought?) on the Iraqi people, both by so-called insurgents and by British and US troops. I'd sign up to everything Badger Kitten said in her very eloquent earlier post about the war being about oil, being illegal etc. Why would i go on the friggin' march if i didn't? But if the march had been about that and that alone, a heck of a lot more people might have come along too.

I remember very well a column by Howard Jacobson at the time of the 2003 march. Now Jacobson's an avowed Zionist (and, personally, I abhor zionism too) so, although he wanted to go on the march to protest against the expected war on Iraq, he could not bring himself to march alongside pro-Palestinian groups.

And that's my point. Regardless of what you think about Jacobson's views on Israel (which don't stop him being a fabulous writer), he surely has as much right to hold them as any of us have the right to hold any views we damn well like. Surely that's what the "diversity" we are all supposed to celebrate is all about. Or are some people allowed to be more diverse than others (to paraphrase Animal Farm)?

Apols in advance but I'm going to bugger off again now. Enough computer for one day.

 

[Badger Kitten]

yeh. but it's small beer compared to what we have been repeatedly told would happen. frankly after 3,000 dead in sept 2001 52 dead and 700 injured doesn't indicate to me a clear and present danger of the onslaught tony blair would have us believe.

if you put even a minute's thought into what you could do with two 10lb bombs and a tube train, the death toll could have been far nearer the 700 mark, with perhaps 52 injured.

we're not facing people who could destroy an entire russian convoy in the salang tunnel before breakfast, but a bunch of fucking amateurish wankers, which though no comfort for the relatives of the dead, and the wounded, is quite a comforting thought for the rest of us.

Do you know, I really find this remark quite incredibly tiresome of you.

America is an enormous country, yet when 3000 citizens were killed in WTC, it was seen as 'an epochal change in history'.

Very few in 9/11 were injured; because of the spectacular method of attack: you either died, or you escaped. Few injuries.

You also saw it , if not involved, on sexy Live TV.
The pornography of direct-hit silver screen tourist-camera friendly destruction.

Deeply memorable, of course.



The 52 dead ten weeks ago were blown to teeny tiny unmemorable pieces: dental records was all left - I saw - and the 700 injured were hurt under-fucking ground . YOU couldn't see.

But we are a small country, nothing like the size of the US - and that was 750 in one hit, in a matter of minutes. In 9/11 they died outright, here, they screamed, were injured, terrified and died WITHOUT BENEFIT OF CAMERAS , underground for half an hour or more - and we heard and saw and you didn't see and you don't have the imagination to care. And so you call it trivial.

And the reason I raise this on this titchy People's Fucking Front of Judea thread in the widerness is because you said it here, and I was here before, telling you why I did march then and didn't march last weekend...

Because, sunshine, some things are more important than numbers, then television, than the 'small beer' of the screaming injured and dying in the commuter carriage that you were fortunate not to see 100 feet below Russell Square. And equally, the 'small beer' the Daily Mail reader doesn't see in the suburbs of Bagdad.

And the 'comforting thought' that you and your Daily Mail reading counterpart hold onto , why it 'doesn't affect you', is why I am posting on this small, silly, ignored thread. It's why I marched before and why I don't march now: people like you make the marches meaningless, it's too small, too parochial,. too much about scoring points against the Nigels and the Jeremys and the Popular Judean Front vs The People's Front of Judea. You lost the urgency; this ain't party politics.

This is not point scoring.


Fuck the size of the marches and the snide points about them: far more people than voted for Labour now hate the war. The non-political, the too-young-to-vote, the cynical, the right-wing, the left-wing: they all hate it. And yet, they don't protest.

And more than that, they're so scared. Scared to get on a bus to the West End.

The latest demo mustered a tiny amount of people, compared to the numbers who want the war over and the soldiers out and the tubes safe.

Fuck arguing why the demo was this small and this speaker wasn't that exciting. Just fuck it. What do you believe? Why do you think its important? What are you doing to make what you want happen, soon?

I hate all this squabbling about the small stuff on demos. It's killing it.

The war was just wrong; blowing people up is shit, here, in Bagdad, Palestine, Jerusalem, anywhere. We're scared of the hate and what it does to us. Millions agree; why bicker? Let's hit the streets if that will stop it; whatever will stop this, please, wtf is the damn point of any of your arguing?

Wrong damn place, wrong damn thread, fuck it. Going to bed; wasting my time.

 

[888]

I suppose some people were there to protest about all that lot - let's just call it - The War Was Wrong as a catch-all subheader - but there were a lot of pretty extreme viewpoints leaping on the T.W.W.W bandwagon and I just wasn't comfortable with that.

What were these extreme viewpoints? Are you imagining them? Aren't you displaying the same parochialism you criticise by not going just because you don't agree with 100% of what everyone there is demonstrating about?

btw America is only 4-5 times bigger than the UK.

The majority of people didn't go to further marches because they either didn't think they'd have any effect (and were right) or thought they'd made their point by going on one and felt morally smug and satisfied.

 

[changingman]

And the reason I raise this this on this titchy People's Fucking Front of Judea thread in the wilderness..... ... why I am posting on this small, silly, ignored thread.

'Ere, leave my thread alone!

The march was on Saturday, I put up my first post on Monday and it's now Wednesday. Time to draw this one to a close I think. We were doomed once we were moved into the angels-on-a-political-pinhead (with the emphasis on "pinhead") zone that is Protest/Direct Action/Activism. Got hijacked by the same forces that drove Saturday off the rails.

I started it, so I want to finish it. Is that OK?

I started it because Saturday's experience left me dismayed, disappointed, and depressed (in the non-medical sense). And many of the comments above I've found quite disturbing and in some cases (e.g. the "small beer" one) shocking. I've told you the main reason why I marched. There are plenty of others - among them the women and children incinerated in the al-Amariyah bomb shelter in the first Gulf War; the thousands of civilians wasted during the so-called Shock and Awe campaign; the lies over WMD; the intimidation of the BBC over Gilligan, and the BBC's pathetic, supine capitulation; the wedding party bombed by "accident"; the queues of hapless job-seekers being targeted by suicide bombers in Baghdad day after day after day; the citizens of Fallujah who were blasted to bits as they hid in the cellars of their own homes. The squaddies I'm not too bothered about.. they're all volunteers after all (so, see, I wasn't the one carrying the "RIP 95" flag, I was in fact wearing a "Bliar" T-shirt).

But the image that's remained in my mind since 7/7 is the thought of those 700-odd souls, dotted around the hospital wards of London, missing arms, legs, eyes, faces even, with brain damage and other injuries too awful to contemplate, facing the prospect of another 20, 30, 40 years of life without being able to run again, or play football, or learn to play guitar, or roll a joint, or wipe their own arse or brush their own teeth, or watch the sunrise or look into their lover's face, or listen to music, or make love properly. Those poor, poor bastards. All victims of the Pandora's box opened up by Blair, and his ministers, undersecretaries, parliamentary private secretaries and other cronies who only went along with it for fear of losing their jobs.

Thanks to them we are living in very, very dangerous times. For many of us the most dangerous in our lifetimes. I don't want to join those 700 (or the 52 who died) any time soon. I don't want my wife to, i don't want my kids to. I don't want any of you to (yes even the total arseholes among you). That's why I marched.


The End. No more posts, please.

P.S. it just occurred to me nobody in Hyde Park brought up fox hunting. Wonder why not? Maybe it was after I left.

 

[X-77]

What were these extreme viewpoints?

I'd like to know what these 'extreme' views are too?

And why shouldn't people who join the marches raise other - not unrelated - concerns, for example Palestine? Do some here think that our govenrment has nothing to do with the Israel-Palestine issue, that we are removed from it all?

 

[Pickman's model]

I started it , so I want to finish it. Is that OK?

no.

 

[flimsier]

BK: I can see you're upset and all, but I can't let that stop me raising that you first said you wouldn't go on the marches because people were raising other issues as well as the war, then later in the thread said you were sick of squabbling over small stuff on demos. Seems a bit of a contradiction to me.

 

[kyser_soze]

And more than that, they're so scared. Scared to get on a bus to the West End.

Sorry if you had a bad experience following &7th July BK, but quite frankly if people have alloowed their lives to be this changed by those bombs then the bombers have totally achieved what they set out to achieve.

I had 4 friends injured and one FoaF died on 7th July so I'm not just saying this out of some kind of armchair warrior mentality. Point of fact is that I'm more likely to be knifed by a random nutter on the buses or tubes than I am blown up by someone, and anyone who can't accept that and stays in scared to use public transport might as well consider ALL the other interesting and imaginative ways they can die when they step out their front door...indeed, when they get out of bed. (more people died from slipping and falling in their bathrooms than died of the bombs)

 

[changingman]

And why shouldn't people who join the marches raise other - not unrelated - concerns, for example Palestine?

I explained why - in post no. 76 above. Now stop it! we're just going round in circles.

 

[changingman]

quite frankly if people have alloowed their lives to be this changed by those bombs then the bombers have totally achieved what they set out to achieve.

Of course they have!! They bombed us for christ's sake. I now refuse to go on the tube (and my life's better for it..). Do you think East Enders' lives in the Blitz didn't change??
ENOUGH ALREADY. STOP .. I'm off to music/clubs/raves/festies - they're a more reasonable crowd in there..

 

[Sorry.]

And the reason I raise this on this titchy People's Fucking Front of Judea thread in the widerness is because you said it here, and I was here before, telling you why I did march then and didn't march last weekend...

Because, sunshine, some things are more important than numbers, then television, than the 'small beer' of the screaming injured and dying in the commuter carriage that you were fortunate not to see 100 feet below Russell Square. And equally, the 'small beer' the Daily Mail reader doesn't see in the suburbs of Bagdad.

And the 'comforting thought' that you and your Daily Mail reading counterpart hold onto , why it 'doesn't affect you', is why I am posting on this small, silly, ignored thread. It's why I marched before and why I don't march now: people like you make the marches meaningless, it's too small, too parochial,. too much about scoring points against the Nigels and the Jeremys and the Popular Judean Front vs The People's Front of Judea. You lost the urgency; this ain't party politics.

This is not point scoring.


Fuck the size of the marches and the snide points about them: far more people than voted for Labour now hate the war. The non-political, the too-young-to-vote, the cynical, the right-wing, the left-wing: they all hate it. And yet, they don't protest.

And more than that, they're so scared. Scared to get on a bus to the West End.

The latest demo mustered a tiny amount of people, compared to the numbers who want the war over and the soldiers out and the tubes safe.

Fuck arguing why the demo was this small and this speaker wasn't that exciting. Just fuck it. What do you believe? Why do you think its important? What are you doing to make what you want happen, soon?

I hate all this squabbling about the small stuff on demos. It's killing it.

The war was just wrong; blowing people up is shit, here, in Bagdad, Palestine, Jerusalem, anywhere. We're scared of the hate and what it does to us. Millions agree; why bicker? Let's hit the streets if that will stop it; whatever will stop this, please, wtf is the damn point of any of your arguing?

Wrong damn place, wrong damn thread, fuck it. Going to bed; wasting my time.

What an astonishingly arrogant post this is. I mean who exactly is 'we' supposed to be? Some imagined liberal majority of everyday folk that you're claiming to be spokesperson for?

You want to know why threads like this really happen? It's because the People Fucking Front of Judea types you sneer so maliciously at are actually passionate, caring people, who actually want to dedicate themselves to change. Not for power or privilege but they genuinely give a flying fuck and want to dedicate themselves to it. They're arguing over how best to get people like yourself - the concerned majority - to actually get off up your arse and do something about this great injustice you've worked yourself up about. Because let's face it - you aren't going to do anything about it on your own. You'll go to 1/2 demos (organised by the People's Fucking Front of Judea, publicised by the People's Fucking Front of Judea) and fuck off home. Then, you'll stand on the sidelines and whinge about the whole thing being hijacked by the 'extremists'. But ask yourself why the 'extremists' end up in charge of this shit, could they do it if the 'ordinary folk' were actively involved? The usual suspects run the show, so you don't have to (it's not a good thing, it's just how it is).

Don't like it, do your own thing. In the meantime we'll have to bicker about why nothing we (the active minority) does ever seems to work, because the likes of you tut and sit on your hands.

 

[winjer]

Not at all - a lot of the people I talked to on F15 were more than a little annoyed to see Free Palenstine and mutliple issue banners on what had been billed as an anti-Iraq war march

It may have been billed as an anti-Iraq war march by the mainstream press but it was always "Don't Attack Iraq - Freedom For Palestine" from the organisers, as was the half-millionish march in the previous September. How would you make sure there were no multiple-issue banners, if that's what you want?

 

[Isambard]

Of course they have!! They bombed us for christ's sake. I now refuse to go on the tube .

Great, I'm more likely to get a seat without you nabbing the seats and stealing the oxygen down there.

How dare you have the arrogance to demand a thread by stopped the minute it FINALLY dawns on you that your argument isn't washing.

The bombings were a milestone if you like in the history of London but didn't change the way of life.

Get over yourself, you wanna get some argument off somewhere else apart from the "coffee morning-lifestyle" supplement of the Substandard.
You know you might even think for yourself for a change, huh.

 

[winjer]

Find me a march that is basically saying The War Was Wrong ( in fact it is fucking immoral) and I'll go on it. And so will about 300,000 other people.

So organise one

 

[Badger Kitten]

What an astonishingly arrogant post this is. I mean who exactly is 'we' supposed to be? Some imagined liberal majority of everyday folk that you're claiming to be spokesperson for?

You want to know why threads like this really happen? It's because the People Fucking Front of Judea types you sneer so maliciously at are actually passionate, caring people, who actually want to dedicate themselves to change. Not for power or privilege but they genuinely give a flying fuck and want to dedicate themselves to it. They're arguing over how best to get people like yourself - the concerned majority - to actually get off up your arse and do something about this great injustice you've worked yourself up about. Because let's face it - you aren't going to do anything about it on your own. You'll go to 1/2 demos (organised by the People's Fucking Front of Judea, publicised by the People's Fucking Front of Judea) and fuck off home. Then, you'll stand on the sidelines and whinge about the whole thing being hijacked by the 'extremists'. But ask yourself why the 'extremists' end up in charge of this shit, could they do it if the 'ordinary folk' were actively involved? The usual suspects run the show, so you don't have to (it's not a good thing, it's just how it is).

Don't like it, do your own thing. In the meantime we'll have to bicker about why nothing we (the active minority) does ever seems to work, because the likes of you tut and sit on your hands.

Right. I did point out that I went to 4, not 2 marches pre-Iraq, from the Women in Black/CND silent protest outside No. 10 in october before the war - there were only about 350 of us there - then 3 more, including the biggie, plus - i din't bother pointing this out - but 6 other peace vigils via Women in Black as well. So I've hardly been sitting on my hands. But let's not have a how high can you piss contest.

I have irritations with the way Gate Gourmet workers, Juan Charles de Menezes justice supporters, people whose aim is to establish an Islamic or communist or socialist state in Britain were all there marching and drawing attention to those causes when it was meant to be about, I thought, stopping the sodding war. ( Yes, look at the stop the war website) Pertinent as those other causes may be, if you allow loads of random, loosely -affiliated causes, some fairly out-there, some simply not relevant to an anti-war march - to be there, then yes, you will freak out the less extreme political majority who may have a huge beef with the war and with Blair but don't really want to march with the Gate Gourmet workers or whoever becase they are nothing to do with the thing . It takes a small amount of sorting but isn't it worth doing? Multi-issue marches are a mess, and far fewer people come, than if you just say 'It's about saying bring the troops back' or whatever, and then wait for the ( much bigger) turn out.


It seems though that the hardliners (who I affectionately mock as the Judean People's front vs. People's Fromnt of Judea) care more about their own internal battles and competing ideaologies than actually doing what you claim to want to do - which is reach out to the majority of non-marchers. You'd rather stereotype people like me as arrogant and uninvolved and I dunno, bourgouisie or whatever, than tone yourselves down and compromise what you say for one second in order to make a real difference.

And that's the point I was trying to make. Go mainstream. Tone it the fuck down. Forget the finer points of ideaology and winning the battles therein. Focus on organising a simple 'Bring the troops home' single issue march, and taking a moderate, determined clear anti-war line and see if that attracts more people out on the streets. Politics is about compromise and it suits those in power just fine tio have a fragmented Left all at each other's throats over the finer points of ideaology because then we are weak and ineffective.