Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Stop the war meeting at Brummie U.

To be fair it also tarred all sectarians with the same brush. There are, of course, both anarchists and sectarians who understand the diffrence between friendly disagreement and denunciation and who realise that having a broad movement means including loads of people who you disagree with rather than trying to exclude them all as a precondition.

And of course, a broad movement must, too, seek to include the anarchists and sectarians....
 
dylanredefined said:
I am confused I thought stop the war was about the iraq war ? Is it now about conflicts in the middle east or wars in general? I know they are all sort of linked but the influence the uk has on israel/palestine conflict is minor at best imho.Historically uk has shafted both sides.

Nope. Stop the War was founded after 9/11 to oppose the move by the US to 'retaliation'. StWC opposed the war on Afghanistan and Iraq; it is opposed to the so-called 'war on terror'.

The three founding principles were basically No to war, No to curtailment of Civil liberties and no to a racist backlash.

Also the UK/Israel link goes back many years. Israel launched an attack on Egypt on the UKs behalf as a precurser to the Suez conflict. It is just that this tool of Imperialism has shifted from operating with the UK to the USA, for obvious reasons.

Excellent post Donna.
 
Donna Ferentes said:
The trouble is, Nigel, that when you throw around phrases like that, all it shows is that you're more interested in insulting people than anything else.

Nope, it means I have no patience for half-witted western liberals who idealise vicious nationalist/sectarian/reactionary movements as long as they are a nice safe distance away. And what's more I don't think that a "movement of millions" or in fact a movement larger than a movement of a few dozen, which is what the IAWM is right now, can be built on the basis of that kind of foolishness. That's not criticism for the sake of criticism. It's criticism because it fucking matters if the people we want to involve in the anti-war movement think that we are a bunch of lunatics with a hard on for anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-semitic, obscurantist reactionaries.

And I feel absolutely no need to be nice and polite in saying that.
 
Jolly good.

You carry on being absolutely right then. But you may find you never get to do anything much more constructive than defining other people.
 
Incidentally, it's my contention that how people act towards one another, on the left, is just as important as what decisions people actually take and what positions they actually hold, in deciding whether people are attracted to political activity or repelled by it.
 
Donna Ferentes said:
You carry on being absolutely right then. But you may find you never get to do anything much more constructive than defining other people.

In most (though by no means all) of the struggles which have taken place in this city in recent years, the Socialist Party has played a leadership role. Notable examples include the GAMA strike - the most important strike victory there has been in Ireland for many years - and the anti-bin tax campaign. Small scale stuff in the greater scheme of things, but a great deal more than any other section of the far left here or in Britain has achieved recently.

And we've managed to make that contribution without being accomodating to idiocy. Tell me, Donna, have you managed to do anything "more constructive" yourself, given that you are doubtlessly both politer and nicer than we are? Other than posting hand-wringing patronising guff about how we should all be nicer to each other on internet message boards?
 
Donna,
There's a difference between polite, honest criticism of somebody's politics and sectarianism. Particularly when they've invited people to ask them questions.

There's also a difference between recognising the role of an organisation in resisting an occupation (and the accompanying solidarity work this must include to be meaningful) and fawning over it's deeply reactionary leadership.
 
In Bloom said:
Donna,
There's a difference between polite, honest criticism of somebody's politics and sectarianism.
And so there is. My problem is that said "polite, honest criticism" is not much to be found among these parts and that the requirements of solidarity are very rarely placed ahead of critcism in the queue.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
Tell me, Donna, have you managed to do anything "more constructive" yourself, given that you are doubtlessly both politer and nicer than we are? Other than posting hand-wringing patronising guff about how we should all be nicer to each other on internet message boards?
Not much, Nigel, I'm retired and in exile. I merely proffer helpful, paternal advice to the young people.
 
So do i , thats why i don't go to STWC meetings where people are violently shouted down for voicing criticisms about supporting Hezbollah. In fact, one of the main criticisms i have heard about SWP types over the years, is that many SWP, certainly in the past, could not relate to other people outside of their party, eg giving someone a lift home after a meeting who wasn't 'onside'.

donnatcha just love the hypocrisy

Urban 75, p/p fast becoming the home of SWP online since the departure of the rebels to the 'other board.

Incidentally, it's my contention that how people act towards one another, on the left, is just as important as what decisions people actually take and what positions they actually hold, in deciding whether people are attracted to political activity or repelled by it.
[/QUOTE]
 
I'm not sure why you're directing that at me - perhaps you have formed the impression that I'm a supporter of a party of which I am not a supporter. Which is kind of your problem - you're looking for enemies to root out, and it's not really a very good way to proceed.
 
Anyone interested in Sue Blackwell's relationship with the SWP should check out her site, which does a lot to expose the way in which the party works and why so many ended up burned out or leaving.

IMO the term "sectarian", much like "lifestylist", is thrown about so much as to lose all meaning. While there's always a case for inclusivity, there is an equal case for being discerning. Acknowledging the role Hezbollah et al play in their respective social struggles, and acting in solidarity with those struggles - ie with the people involved with them on the grassroots - does not have to equate with supporting, defending and promoting the leadership of an organisation which has shown itself to be reactionary in the extreme.

Equally, I see no real reason why there should be a problem with criticising those who take the latter position - and attempts to silence/undermine that criticism by labelling it "sectarian" is dishonest to say the least.

- Jonathan
 
Donna Ferentes said:
The trouble is, Nigel, that when you throw around phrases like that, all it shows is that you're more interested in insulting people than anything else. Which is what happens with small sectarian groups: they denounce and insult people. Which is why I don't take them awfully seriously.

See, Nige, these days I go on gut instincts. By gut instinct, I'm a socialist. Now I don't really know any more what sort of socialist I am, but I do know that my instincts are to support people rather than denounce them, to want a broad movement rather than a narrow one and to be an internationalist. These things are in many ways the same thing. It means supporting and apprecaiting people who I might strongly, even vehemently disagree with - but it does mean supporting them, i.e. backing them up, defending them from attack, sticking my neck out for them: rather than what it means on the sectarian left, where support means no more than issuing a statement saying "we support such-and-such" and then folowing it with a thousand reasons why they're terrible. I won't do that.

It's a bit like "Two Souls of Socialism" except they're a different two souls to Draper's: there's the soul of solidarity and the soul of denunciation. I can't abide denunciation. I like solidairty. Real solidarity, not paper solidarity. I could quote Lenin on Luxemburg or something to back it up, if that be the format you like, but really, as I say, it's about gut insitinct. You don't have to be uncritical, but you do have to stand by people when they're under attack. That's basic, to me.

It's not, however, basic to anarchists and sectarians, who want everything to be just so. Their gut instinct is to disassociate themselves from everybody who isn't quite right: the anarchists, from anybody who's not an anarchist, the sectarians, from anybody who hasn't got the right line. Not entirely, of courde, but on the whole, that's what what they do. Their first instinct is to subject somebody or something to bitter criticism. Which is why they end up on their own, wondering why they're in such small numbers. They understand how right they are and can't udnerstand why everybody else doesn't see it that way. But a movement of millions is, of necessity, many movements, and is also of necessaity, a movement where those different movements are generous towards one another. Where we don't approach everything with the outlook "right: I need to show what's wrong with these other people". Or where everybody else has to be described with insults and abuse.

to summarize: socialist --> wanting a broad movement --> supporting religious reactionaries who are both anti-women and anti-gay because they are fighting the israelis.

it's a bit like when the austrian socialists worked together with the nazis against a common enemy in the twenties...
 
JonnyT said:
IMO the term "sectarian", much like "lifestylist", is thrown about so much as to lose all meaning. While there's always a case for inclusivity, there is an equal case for being discerning. Acknowledging the role Hezbollah et al play in their respective social struggles, and acting in solidarity with those struggles - ie with the people involved with them on the grassroots - does not have to equate with supporting, defending and promoting the leadership of an organisation which has shown itself to be reactionary in the extreme.
Sectarian! :mad:

;)
 
JonnyT said:
Equally, I see no real reason why there should be a problem with criticising those who take the latter position - and attempts to silence/undermine that criticism by labelling it "sectarian" is dishonest to say the least
No, it's approaches like that which are sectarian: talking about "attempts to silence", "dishonest" and so on. You're basically looking to have a barney rather than to discuss things. Which is, again, the problem.
 
Incidentally, I'm never too impressed with the old gag of saying "we're in solidarity with the rank and file, but we're attacking the reactionary leadership". In practice this means "we're going to lay into these people".
 
Donna Ferentes said:
Incidentally, I'm never too impressed with the old gag of saying "we're in solidarity with the rank and file, but we're attacking the reactionary leadership". In practice this means "we're going to lay into these people".
Evidence?

Or might you be "basically looking to have a barney rather than to discuss things"?
 
In Bloom said:
Evidence?
Experience.

Experience of the tone and nature of these disagreements. They do tend to the, ah, denunciatory.

And people then say "ah, but we weren't attacking the rank and file". But to be honest if people are in an organisation and you say "the leadership of your organisation is rancid" then they may not see the distinction quite so clearly.

The desire to denounce is such a problem.
 
Donna Ferentes said:
No, it's approaches like that which are sectarian: talking about "attempts to silence", "dishonest" and so on. You're basically looking to have a barney rather than to discuss things. Which is, again, the problem.
if anything, it is you who has proved my point; rather than answer a single issue raised in my post you instead accuse me of being "sectarian" and avoid the discussion entirely.

and I'm not looking for a "barney". I'm looking for a discussion - one that is not aided by constant accusations of "sectarianism".

and as for:

Incidentally, I'm never too impressed with the old gag of saying "we're in solidarity with the rank and file, but we're attacking the reactionary leadership". In practice this means "we're going to lay into these people".
Put in a position where we are against the leadership of a particular group (SWP, certain unions, Hezbollah) there are seemingly three alternatives on the grassroots level:

1. Work together, silence all criticism for the sake of some vague sense of "unity"
2. Refuse to work with them due to their leadership, thus undermining a lot of potential action
3. Work together while remaining critical of the organisation itself, while acknowledging that people are not solely defined by their "leaders".

I tend to go with three.

- Jonathan
 
districtline said:
to summarize: socialist --> wanting a broad movement --> supporting religious reactionaries who are both anti-women and anti-gay because they are fighting the israelis.

it's a bit like when the austrian socialists worked together with the nazis against a common enemy in the twenties...

I'm not up on Austrian history from the 1920s so please tell me more about this. However I suspect you're referring to the German nazis forcing a referendum against a social democratic state government in the early 30s, in which they were backed by the stalinists.
 
Back
Top Bottom