stop the war demo, 24 sept & politicos on the piss

[winjer]

And you are a part of a sickening, increasingly illiberal, official racist consensus against Muslims.

Muslims still aren't a race, despite the STWC's best attempts at psyops.

 

[Paul Marsh]

The leaflet advertising the September 24th protest in London is a fucking disgrace.

Although the heading "Stop the Bombings - Stop The War" may lead you to believe STWC is opposed to the sort of terrorist attacks we saw in London in July, the leaflet manages not to say so anywhere. Surely that was worth a mention? Indeed "Stop the Bombings" is so vague it could be referring to anything, anywhere.

The second paragraph is awful. Most will have no problem with the heading "Defend the Muslim Community" although it is tempting to point out that the biggest problem the Muslim community in the UK faces is the behaviour of Muslims within that very community.
But for STWC to state "We reject the view that terrorism is rooted in Muslim fanaticism" is incredible - are they implying Bin Laden leads a group of slightly irritated Church of England scholars? Or that the July 7 bombers were not fanatics or bigots?

The leaflert then goes on to complain that criticising Muslim fanaticism is no more relevant than saying Bush has a Christian fundamentalist foreign policy. Bush of course has nothing of the sort - he has a neo-conservative foreign policy, devised by people who in some cases have no religion at all (apart possibly from oil) some who are Christians and some are Jews.

STWC should be making political points like this - instead it prefers to push religion to the fore. Instead of "bums on seats" there policy is "hajibs on marches".
They state "neither Muslims nor Islam are the problem" in utter ignorance of the debates that are (or bloody well should be) going on within Islam and Muslim communities across the UK. STWC do not seek to side with any progressive forces within these communites, it is instead blanket solidarity with an entire religion, under all circumstances.

Finally we meet the heading "Bring the Troops Home by Christmas". STWC seem to have abandoned their "Troops Out Now" line, and quite why Christmas has been selected as a cut off point is not stated. Needless to say, as Iraqi civilians drown in blood, with hideous bombings on a daily basis, there is no condemnation of the attacks on Iraqi civilians carried out in the name of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, or those carried out by one branch of Islam against another.

All I can say is I am glad I will be at a football match on Saturday 24th, and not marching anywhere near these idiots!

 

[flimsier]

JHE is Islamophobic. His attacks on the SWP are an excuse to attack Islam specifically. He is a racist twat, and there is no doubt about that.

As you were, but don't use his posts to support your (to everyone).

 

[Nigel Irritable]

The leaflet advertising the September 24th protest in London is a fucking disgrace.

Although the heading "Stop the Bombings - Stop The War" may lead you to believe STWC is opposed to the sort of terrorist attacks we saw in London in July, the leaflet manages not to say so anywhere. Surely that was worth a mention? Indeed "Stop the Bombings" is so vague it could be referring to anything, anywhere.

There was a row over some of this in the Stop the War Coalition after the London bombings.

Socialist Party members on the steering committee argued that the next demonstration should be brought forward and that the slogans should be along the lines of No to War, No to Terrorism, No to Racism. This was voted down by the SWP et al, partly because they didn't want to bring forward the demo and partly because they didn't like the idea of taking such an unambiguous stand on terrorism.

 

[james_walsh]

And you are a part of a sickening, increasingly illiberal, official racist consensus against Muslims. Jean Charles de Menezes, an innocent man, is dead at the hands of the Met Police. Thousands of Muslims have been killed by this Government in Iraq. What do you say about any of this? Nothing - because you are a fuckwit.

So when iraqy christians, jews or atheists get killed by stray bombs thats ok?.Your a sick reactionary communalist.
Jean Charles de Menezes was white and not a muslem ,you only seem to be bothered that he might have been(black and/or muslim).And lets not even mention Serbia, don't want to show the hypocrisy of your moslem friends.
Your the fuckwit.

 

[Pickman's model]

And you are a part of a sickening, increasingly illiberal, official racist consensus against Muslims. Jean Charles de Menezes, an innocent man, is dead at the hands of the Met Police. Thousands of Muslims have been killed by this Government in Iraq. What do you say about any of this? Nothing - because you are a fuckwit.

satan!

i'd have thought the unfortunate moslems had enough on their plate without having SO-CALLED mates like you.

 

[Random]

'The working class can kiss my arse
I've got the Muslim vote at last'

 

[mk12]

'The working class can kiss my arse
I've got the Muslim vote at last'

How many working class Muslims voted for Galloway in Bethnal Bow and Green, do you think?

 

[Random]

How many working class Muslims voted for Galloway in Bethnal Bow and Green, do you think?

I've no idea. Is Respect keeping tabs on what class their voters are from? That would be interesting to see.

 

[mk12]

It's just interesting how people differentiate between "the muslim vote" and "the working class vote", as if there can be no crossover.

 

[rebel warrior]

They can't Matt. There are no working class Muslims in their book. To have the 'Muslim vote', ie support from the most oppressed section of British society is a terrible thing - and a betrayal of principle for them.

True revolutionaries stand in elections and get 0.3%, or 60 votes and come 8th. Anyone getting more votes than that is a sell out communalist bastard.

 

[mk12]

To have the 'Muslim vote', ie support from the most oppressed section of British society is a terrible thing...

Most importantly though, Bethanl Green and Bow is one of the poorest areas in London.

 

[Pickman's model]

They can't Matt. There are no working class Muslims in their book. To have the 'Muslim vote', ie support from the most oppressed section of British society is a terrible thing - and a betrayal of principle for them.

True revolutionaries stand in elections and get 0.3%, or 60 votes and come 8th. Anyone getting more votes than that is a sell out communalist bastard.

there are working class moslems. there are middle class moslems. the thing is that the ruc go out specifically to get the moslem vote - as the "ruc is the moslem party" leaflet that shoddy party put out shows. there's no talk of working class moslems in fucking ruc propaganda, there's just moslems. as for the moslems being the most oppressed section of british society, it seems to me that the government is bending over backwards to bring them into the fold. the most oppressed section of british society is not one cross-class community, but precisely the same people it's always been: the poor fuckers at the bottom of the pile - the working class.

 

[Random]

Most importantly though, Bethanl Green and Bow is one of the poorest areas in London.

Yet you're happy to have the pawn shop owners, employers, slumlords and other profiteers in that area vote for Respect -- as long as they're in some way 'anti-imperialist'?

 

[Pickman's model]

Anyone getting more votes than that is a sell out communalist bastard.

poor george galloway, with his sometime friends turning on him like that.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yet you're happy to have the pawn shop owners, employers, slumlords and other profiteers in that area vote for Respect -- as long as they're in some way 'anti-imperialist'?

but, random, you know that they'll get more business if people who might go to *another* pawnbroker can go instead to an *ethical anti-imperialist* pawnbroker with an ruc poster in the window! good for pawnbrokers, good for the ruc, the only losers are the poor people who need to sell their valuables to pay their bills.

 

[rebel warrior]

there are working class moslems. there are middle class moslems. the thing is that the ruc go out specifically to get the moslem vote - as the "ruc is the moslem party" leaflet that shoddy party put out shows. there's no talk of working class moslems in fucking ruc propaganda, there's just moslems. as for the moslems being the most oppressed section of british society, it seems to me that the government is bending over backwards to bring them into the fold. the most oppressed section of british society is not one cross-class community, but precisely the same people it's always been: the poor fuckers at the bottom of the pile - the working class.

Not true - the working class as a whole is exploited - but there are different degrees of oppression. So a black or asian woman is more oppressed than a white working class bloke - though they might well be equally exploited.

 

[mk12]

Yet you're happy to have the pawn shop owners, employers, slumlords and other profiteers in that area vote for Respect -- as long as they're in some way 'anti-imperialist'?

How many of the 15,000 voters were "pawn shop owners, employers, slumlords and other profiteers" I wonder?

 

[Pickman's model]

Not true - the working class as a whole is exploited - but there are different degrees of oppression. So a black or asian woman is more oppressed than a white working class bloke - though they might well be equally exploited.

& moslems?

 

[oisleep]

So a black or asian woman is more oppressed than a white working class bloke - though they might well be equally exploited.

so they are exploited on an equal basis but one is oppressed more than another

so the thousands of white working class poles who have come to the UK over the last few years, many of whom are currently working for less than minimum wages are nowhere near as oppressed as an asian businesswomen

rebel. wisen up.

 

[rebel warrior]

& moslems?

So you finished behind the Rainbow Party, who got 3 times as many votes as your candidate,... and then what happened to London Class War?

 

[oisleep]

rebel, if you need to harp all the way back to the early 80's or whenever it was to have a pop at contemporary anarchist groups, what does that tell you?

 

[rebel warrior]

so they are exploited on an equal basis but one is oppressed more than another

so the thousands of white working class poles who have come to the UK over the last few years, many of whom are currently working for less than minimum wages are nowhere near as oppressed as an asian businesswomen

rebel. wisen up.

Racism is based on more than just the colour of your skin - so Irish workers suffered racism in Britain in the 19th century, as did Jews fleeing pogroms, - so Polish migrant workers might well be oppressed as well as exploited.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

so they are exploited on an equal basis but one is oppressed more than another

I'm not sure why that's confusing. Exploitation is at the heart of oppression under capitalism but it isn't the only form it takes. I'm as fond of taking a pop at SWPers as the next man, but is Rebel Warrior really getting a hard time here for arguing that there is such a thing as racism?

 

[Pickman's model]

So you finished behind the Rainbow Party, who got 3 times as many votes as your candidate,... and then what happened to London Class War?

and why haven't the swappies stood candidates under their own name since the 1970s? i was told once that the last time it occurred, the swp types got *roundly defeated*.

and what the fuck's happened to yr avowal that there is no parliamentary route to socialism? or the cry from last summer for the ruc to raise a million quid and get a million votes?

and did we ever get to the bottom of the ruc's 23 million missing leaflets?

was it your idea to get the ruc to have their abortive boycott of the independent?

 

[rebel warrior]

rebel, if you need to harp all the way back to the early 80's or whenever it was to have a pop at contemporary anarchist groups, what does that tell you?

I am just surprised that Pickman's had never mentioned this aspect of Class Wars history on here before, and yet he has lectured everyone else about the dos and don'ts of standing in elections...

 

[oisleep]

Racism is based on more than just the colour of your skin - so Irish workers suffered racism in Britain in the 19th century, as did Jews fleeing pogroms, - so Polish migrant workers might well be oppressed as well as exploited.

so why in your example assert that a black person is more likely to be oppressed than a white person

 

[Pickman's model]

I am just surprised that Pickman's had never mentioned this aspect of Class Wars history on here before, and yet he has lectured everyone else about the dos and don'ts of standing in elections...

i deal in the here and now, rebel, which seems more than yr capable of doing.

yeh, we stood in kensington & chelsea in 1988 (iirc) and got 60 votes. i seem to recall the ruc getting below that in some places in a much more recent election. we never expected to get elected, rather standing as a 'fuck off' to the main parties and to heighten our profile. it clearly worked!

we stood on an avowedly class struggle platform, whereas the ruc daren't even stand on a fucking socialist manifesto for fear of losing their moslem mates' votes.

 

[oisleep]

I am just surprised that Pickman's had never mentioned this aspect of Class Wars history on here before, and yet he has lectured everyone else about the dos and don'ts of standing in elections...

perhaps he wasn't a member at the time, perhaps he was one of the many who disagreed with it, but i would prefer to focus on what groups are doing in the hear and now instead of relying upon what they said/did 20 years ago

i.e. SWP 20 years ago claimed to be a revolutionary socialist party, they are now electorally embraced reformists, i'd rather judge them based on what they are doing now

 

[oisleep]

I'm not sure why that's confusing. Exploitation is at the heart of oppression under capitalism but it isn't the only form it takes. I'm as fond of taking a pop at SWPers as the next man, but is Rebel Warrior really getting a hard time here for arguing that there is such a thing as racism?

i just don't understand why you can say two people are exploited equally, i.e. in equal measures, but one is more oppressed than another (if capitalism is at the heart of it all why would it be so inefficent as to go to the bother of oppressing someone more than another but not gaining benefit from that by exploiting them to the same degree) and especially as he asserts that asian business women are more oppressed than white working class poles