Stop Press**Respect win Tower Hamlets Council By-Election**

[Gumbert]

<to flim>
no, not picking a fight. just defending myself...

i think lessons can be learnt from the campaigning in tower hamlets and i agree for respect to get *heavy* we have to sink into white w/c areas for it to have the same impact as tonights victory countrywide in the future..

just alot more to be done. plus i think that all out canvassing helps..

when we were going around the ward here in leeds, were the respect candidate tripled her vote since last time, one thing struck me was that Labour became a force because they had tons of members out canvassing way back when (20s/30s). for us to have that impact means the hard graft has to be done on the ground.

theres more but i'm tired

 

[butchersapron]

Fine. RESPECT winning was a defeat for the working class, but you can't give me a 'possible world' where there wouldn't be a defeat for the working class.

If it was a defeat tonight, surely you should be able to state what a victory (in realistic terms) would've been, otherwise surely it negates your 'defeat' terminology.

Defeat: 'failure to win'.

How could the working class have won tonight butchers?

It couldn't you prat - that's the whole point. Do you even read anything about the political positions of the people you talk to? You talk to anarchists all the time, yet you know nothing about them - or what they believe?

A victory sure - when you relate to your socialist revolution - was it in chile? Please tell me.

 

[past caring]

i know that our cards have been on the table and so have yours. after all the criticisms we scored one victory.

Yes, you did win the seat. And I won't deny it's an achievement - it is generally harder to win in a by-election than where there are a whole load of seats up for grabs, if only because the other parties can also bus in activists rather than spreading themselves thinly.....

But the point is that this victory in no way negates the criticisms we've been making of Respect. We've been consistent in saying that one of its major (and I believe ultimately fatal) flaws is that it is designed to appeal to one, very small, section of the working class - Muslim voters. And if that weren't bad enough it also appeals to them as Muslims.

It would take a victory - or at least a few decent showings - in areas where there was no significant Muslim population in order to refute that criticism.

Part of the problem for Respect, so far, is that the only times it had contested such areas is when it has been forced to, in order to stand at all - ie the Euro and GLA elections. It is significant that, where Respect has had opportunity to "pick the fight", so to speak, on each occasion it has done so in area with a significant Muslim population.

 

[flimsier]

It couldn't you prat - that's the whole point. Do you even read anything about the political positions of the people you talk to? You talk to anarchists all the time, yet you know nothing about them - or what they believe?

A victory sure - when you rrelate to mase your socilaist revolution - was it in chile? Please tell me.

Well perhaps you need to be a bit more sophisticated in your use of defeat.

In the morning maybe, as I think you need some sleep.

 

[flimsier]

Yes, you did win the seat. And I won't deny it's an achievement - it is generally harder to win in a by-election than where there are a whole load of seats up for grabs, if only because the other parties can also bus in activists rather than spreading themselves thinly.....

But the point is that this victory in no way negates the criticisms we've been making of Respect. We've been consistent in saying that one of its major (and I believe ultimately fatal) flaws is that it is designed to appeal to one, very small, section of the working class - Muslim voters. And if that weren't bad enough it also appeals to them as Muslims.

It would take a victory - or at least a few decent showings - in areas where there was no significant Muslim population in order to refute that criticism.

Part of the problem for Respect, so far, is that the only times it had contested such areas is when it has been forced to, in order to stand at all - ie the Euro and GLA elections. It is significant that, where Respect has had opportunity to "pick the fight", so to speak, on each occasion it has done so in area with a significant Muslim population.

I agree with this.

I understand (I think) that this is what some of the leading members of RESPECT are realising too - as illustrated by John Rees at Marxism.

(none of the above was my fundamental problem - but we'll see).

 

[Harold Hill]

Of course, but in the 'here and now' politics of the IWCA, what would've not been a defeat tonight - because you seem to think that RESPECT winning was a defeat and said you'd defend that.

Was that worse than the Lib Dems winning?

Anyone else?

What does the IWCA have to do with this?

 

[JHE]

The only information I've been able to find on Respec's new councillor is this interview in Weekly Worker.

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/534/rahman.html

To be honest, he doesn't sound too bad. Certainly Respec' and the Social Workers are associated with much worse than him.

Trying to look on the bright side of Respec's little electoral victory... Let's wait and see what Cllr. Rahman does and says. Many people here, I guess, will not be very interested in the doings or sayings of a Tower Hamlets councillor, but some of us will be. If his politics turn out to be a pile of Islamic shit, it will be pointed out. If, on the other hand, his trade unionism and purported egalitarianism have a greater influence on him, good for him.

We'll see.

 

[butchersapron]

... so do you have confidence in what was a pasing reference translating into a senstive IWCA approach - and just where is it going to happen?

Without having a crack on the old cliches - you have no w/c members - if you do they are kids and have no influence at all -they've been away and to uni - they don'tr know abouyt signing on or anything - and you have none of that 'layer' - how you gonna do it? How you gonna attract white w/c people?

 

[flimsier]

Yes, so you ignore the councillor who has just been elected, instantly negating part of your last paragraph.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, so you ignore the councillor who has just been elected, instantly negating part of your last paragraph.

No. makes no sense. What on earth does 'ignore' mean in this context. Read what i wrote, not what you think i wrote - wht is that so fucking hard?

 

[flimsier]

What does the IWCA have to do with this?

Fair point. I didn't actually mean to turn this into a discussion about the IWCA and meant to clarify but got caught up in a flurry of posts.

I said that, perhaps mistakenly, because of butcher's qualified support for the IWCA and their approach.

I wonder if he'd call their election 'a defeat for the working class'.

However, that's not really the argument. My argument is that if you call this event, specifically, a defeat for the working class, then there must, by definition, be some idea of what a victory could've been.

If you can't tell me what a victory could've been, then you can't defend the position butchers said he would.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, so you ignore the councillor who has just been elected, instantly negating part of your last paragraph.

.., and just how on earth does that negate the last para - that one is very much standing ann requiring an answer...

 

[Gumbert]

No. makes no sense. What on earth does 'ignore' mean in this context. Read what i wrote, not what you think i wrote - wht is that so fucking hard?

i think hes aiming at the swp here.

 

[flimsier]

you have no w/c members - if you do they are kids and have no influence at all

So the councillor just elected is not working class?

To be honest, I think RESPECT will find it a lot harder than they think to break through in the areas they are now talking about, but I welcome that they are talking about it.

They quite rightly say that if they fail to break through in those areas, then the Muslims will leave them - for radicalised Muslims do not want to be stuck in some ghetto.

I think that's most likely, but not inevitable. My experience in Walthamstow is what makes me think that most likely.

Speculating that their members are not working class or have all been to university is just stupid.

Anyway, I am going to bed. As I said, I suggest you do the same.

 

[butchersapron]

Fair point. I didn't actually mean to turn this into a discussion about the IWCA and meant to clarify but got caught up in a flurry of posts.

I said that, perhaps mistakenly, because of butcher's qualified support for the IWCA and their approach.

I wonder if he'd call their election 'a defeat for the working class'.

However, that's not really the argument. My argument is that if you call this event, specifically, a defeat for the working class, then there must, by definition, be some idea of what a victory could've been.

If you can't tell me what a victory could've been, then you can't defend the position butchers said he would.

Of course you can if you say there is 'no victories' or 'no courtesy' - do you know anything about w/c history?

 

[flimsier]

Nothing butchers. Nothing at all. You've done me there. Fucking hell, I bow down and submit to your worldly knowledge.

Or maybe, having not had anything to drink, I'm finding you very hard to follow. Good night.

 

[butchersapron]

So the councillor just elected is not working class?

To be honest, I think RESPECT will find it a lot harder than they think to break through in the areas they are now talking about, but I welcome that they are talking about it.

They quite rightly say that if they fail to break through in those areas, then the Muslims will leave them - for radicalised Muslims do not want to be stuck in some ghetto.

I think that's most likely, but not inevitable. My experience in Walthamstow is what makes me think that most likely.

Speculating that their members are not working class or have all been to university is just stupid.

Anyway, I am going to bed. As I said, I suggest you do the same.

Stop playing teacher you fucking dick. You can suggest up your fucking arse as far as i'm concerned. Fucking drunken puritans.

 

[flimsier]

I don't know - do you? No need for 5000 words. Ley us know.

Now what are you referring to here.

Which part don't you know? Haven't you read the start of the thread about his history?

And you berate me.

Last post. I'm knackered.

edit: apologies. I read it on a linked thread - not this one.

 

[past caring]

I think that's most likely, but not inevitable. My experience in Walthamstow is what makes me think that most likely.

Not trying to be snippy - and I know it's late - but you don't help yourself, sometimes.

What do you think is most likely? That they'll break through? Or be stuck in some ghetto?

 

[wakezup]

No i don't play that game - get it - i do not vote. Ever.

I've heard you used to vote Labour.

 

[flimsier]

Not trying to be snippy - and I know it's late - but you don't help yourself, sometimes.

What do you think is most likely? That they'll break through? Or be stuck in some ghetto?

I think that if they continue to act as they did in my area they will be stuck in some ghetto and the radicalised Muslims (and everyone else) will leave them.

I've been told, in subsequent correspondance and discussion, that that is particular to my area.

I'm not sure I believe it.

 

[past caring]

I've heard you used to vote Labour.

And I used to write NF on my school books...........

Who the fuck are you again?

 

[butchersapron]

No i was in the Labour party. For quite some time - and i voted labour then. " i do not vote. Ever" is referring to the future otherwise...

Am i up for an outing now?

 

[butchersapron]

I've heard you used to vote Labour.

You're in bristol yeah - do i know you? Want to tell me who you are - PM or e-mail if you want - no probs if you don't..

 

[butchersapron]

Fake Anrchist!!!!!!

 

[Gumbert]

before i go to bed i'd just like to add the oluir rahman is a pcs member whos currently on strike...

 

[butchersapron]

The piety never ends...

 

[wakezup]

And I used to write NF on my school books...........

Who the fuck are you again?

No one you would know smiler.

 

[butchersapron]

Right - you think you know both of us.You might well do.

OK.

 

[wakezup]

Fake Anrchist!!!!!!

Get your head down mate. I'm not the enemy I'm just pointing out some holes in your argument. Maybe you need to get out a bit more. Urban is so incestuous.