Stephen Fry - the secret life of the manic depressive, tonight
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Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
Who says we were meant to be sane anyway? As long as you can gather food, walk to the next water hole, fight off your rivals and attract a mate, then you'll do just fine. Consciousness is a remarkable thing, but nobody ever said it was perfectly formed - or needed to be.
Louloubelle
Well-Known Member
Groucho said:
There are a few who maintain that it is a real condition, the most famous in the Uk being Valerie Sinason, who also writes widely derided books on treating survivors of satanic abuse. I think you'll find that most reputable therapists don't believe that this is a real phenomena
good link here
http://www.religioustolerance.org/mpd_did.htm
Crispy said:
I don't think that is the issue. It is not about being 'sane', conforming with society's norms etc (it certainly shouldn't be). It is about the pain that mental health issues cause the individual.
I am completely 'sane'. I also suffer from, or have suffered from, depression. When I have been suffering from depression and behaving in a way that is off kilter I am really not having a good time of it!
Having said that there are other occassions when I am bouncy and well but some other people think my behaviour is off kilter and abnormal. That doesn't bother me; I'm having fun, therefore I'm not ill. (And I'm not causing anyone else harm or hassle)
The medical judgement about what is an "illness" as opposed to a personality type is a very interesting issue. For example have a look at this definition of "Hypomania":
To some people being like this would be seen as a great way to be, the only downsides being the over-confidence/impaired judgement (although many people have that anyway) and the risk of it leading to full mania or depression (but again lots of people are 'at risk' of various hralth problems, without having any).
source: http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=30745
To some people being like this would be seen as a great way to be, the only downsides being the over-confidence/impaired judgement (although many people have that anyway) and the risk of it leading to full mania or depression (but again lots of people are 'at risk' of various hralth problems, without having any).
Stigmata
sexual tyrannosaurus
tommers said:
Or Margery Kempe, the medieval King's Lynn woman who was regularly overcome with hysterical sobbing when in church or on pilgrimage and claimed to see angels. Even at the time some people thought she was a lunatic while others considered her blessed and wrote down her experiences.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
I agree with you.TeeJay said:
There are many posts on this thread even that refer to mental illness. But are such conditions/states of being/personality types always illnesses? Is it a health problem? Or just a difference?
I'm not bipolar, but I have suffered quite badly over the years, to the point of being suicidal, from depression. But that's also a comorbidity with Asperger's Syndrome, which is sometimes referred to as a "disorder".
Yes, I've certainly noticed over the years that I'm a bit 'different', but disordered? As against what standard?
And like most of the people in Stephen Fry's programme, I wouldn't press the button and lose my Aspieness either. It's part of who I am, I wouldn't be the person I am today without it, and I quite like being me.
It's strange this medicalisation of different personality types. Since finding out about Asperger's, I've read quite a bit and while growing up I accepted the medical model as the norm, I'm now converted to the social model.
I strongly feel that people should no more have to be 'diagnosed' as having a different personality type than they should be 'diagnosed' as being gay, or transvestite, or conservative or eccentric, or a christian fundamentalist or an eco-activist or whatever.
Why do people have to be given a label that effectively says they have an illness. If a condition or syndrome is part of a person's personality, it makes them who they are, does that necessarily mean they are 'suffering' from it, or that they are ill? To my mind, it doesn't necessarily follow.
The toruble is that psychiatrists are trained to "find" problems and prescribe medication to treat these problems. They go looking for them. It is actually very disturbing to be on the recieving end of a psychiatric assessment - you could go in there in a fairly good mood, calm and collecte (and wanting to talk about various issues and questions) and some of those arsewipes will wind you up, ignore any opf your questions, give you a 3rd degree interrogation and ask the most annoying and intrusive stuff, almost like they are trying to get people to lose their tempers or get riled up or upset in some way or another ... and then out comes the note book, followed by the prescription pad. Obviously they need to justify their fat salairies and the pharmaceutical companies need to keep pushing their drugs. The whole thing stinks. It is not surprising that many people willtry to avoid them as much as possible - you get treated like shit IME.
I was diagnosed as suffering from depression earlier this year. I've rarely seen much of my GP before, I'm the sort who goes in and gets out fast as possible. When I was on my arse though I found him to be a really nice bloke. He prescribed me Fluoxetine and while others don't seem to get on with it I've not really had any problems.
Having watched the prog the other night I could easily self diagnose myself as bi-polar. I'm in a bit of a manic phase just now, quite hyper really, and I'm enjoying it. I don't see this as a product of the medication. When I went to the doc I felt so shit I could only recall negatives but I've had many good times in my life. As someone said though I think of this as a continuum and as long as my behaviour isn't having a negative effect on those around me, as my depression does, I'll happily do nothing about it, just have to watch my recreational drug and drink intake.
Having watched the prog the other night I could easily self diagnose myself as bi-polar. I'm in a bit of a manic phase just now, quite hyper really, and I'm enjoying it. I don't see this as a product of the medication. When I went to the doc I felt so shit I could only recall negatives but I've had many good times in my life. As someone said though I think of this as a continuum and as long as my behaviour isn't having a negative effect on those around me, as my depression does, I'll happily do nothing about it, just have to watch my recreational drug and drink intake.
ska invita
back on the other side
Every individual is different but Stephen Fry stikes me as an mild case considering how well he appears to be functioning with no medication.
The 4million BP sufferers figure strikes me as high, but I guess that is beacasue there is a big spectrum of how hard it can hit you -
lots of love to all sufferers and carers too..
The 4million BP sufferers figure strikes me as high, but I guess that is beacasue there is a big spectrum of how hard it can hit you -
lots of love to all sufferers and carers too..
ska invita
back on the other side
...just downloaded the bb pdf guide
http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/tv_and_radio/secret_life/secret_life_manic_depression.pdf
turns out Stephen has "cyclothymia ", a mild version of bipolar.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/tv_and_radio/secret_life/secret_life_manic_depression.pdf
turns out Stephen has "cyclothymia ", a mild version of bipolar.
Its not quite as simple as that. He talked about his suicide attempt and you can't really get more extreme consequences than 'dead'. I have been in hospital twice, unlike Fry (who had a brief stay but not quite in the same way) but I have never tried to kill myself. He was talking about 'five year cycles', but ultimately the psychiatrists are not that good at defining the 'condition' or even diagnosing it with much rigour - people are typically told that they will have the condition 'forever' and that they must take medication on an ongoing basis. This is actually bullshit - I know this from firsthand personal experience.niksativa said:
So yes a "mild case" - at the moment - but has been very severe if he was suicidal, and also you should have a lot of caution about the definitions and descriptions of psychiatry as there is a lot of flawed thinking going on.
Note at the end the guy giving him a "score", saying that he scores 70-something but if his teenage years had enough of a 'delusional' aspect he would score 'over 80'. Fry then says that he is rethinking how serious things are in light of this score - but you can see how subjective this is when based on someone chit-chatting about things (a subjective and second hand view) that happened 30 or 40 years ago. How can this be turned into a number that then says whether Fry should be medicated up to his eyeballs now? The whole thinking is sloppy pseudoscience, its all over the place.
I have just read this.niksativa said:
It is probably the best thing I have ever read about bipolar and sums things up very well.
However, I would still take issue with a few of the things that are claimed in it.
I won't go into it all right now, but just to give you a taste of the problems some people can have when faced with psychitry trying to 'help' them:
Suddenly all aspect of your life, lifestyle believes, views on things, all aspects of your personality, everything you talk about or say has happened to you - everything is put through a 'pathology' analysis. I can now look back at my case notes from 5/6 years ago and see the staff had written various things about me which are verifiably false - because they interpreted everything as being a 'symptom' of my being manic or deluded or paranoid etc - even when some of these things were completely true and valid. You also get people questioning you baout how interested you are in sex, what kind and how often you are having it and with whom. They then even pass judgement about this - they might consider you to be 'too interested' in sex (symptom of mania) or not interested enough (symptom of depression). basically they say that the first thing you must do is admit that you are ill and accept their diagnosis, and from then on you are their bitch.
Basically it can take a lot of time and effort getting these parasites off your back again and getting them to fuck off. Once you have been categorised you are always "sick" in their eyes and only one signature away from being locked up and forceably medicated. Accepting this is seen as "healthy" whereas reacting negatively to this is called "lack of insight" (and getting pissed off about it gets labelled as aggressive and potentially dangerous to themself or others).
Last time I had the misfortune to cross the path of a fuckwitted psychiatrists who started to demand that I submit to her drugs etc my GP told me to not talk to her again, or even file a complaint as it would be used against me. He also told me she was "an idiot" and luckily also said he would sort things out by going over her head to her supervising consultant, saying that he had everything sorted.
Other fuckwits that I have had to step carefully around are DWP (benefits) people who started demanding that I should be 'under treatment' - ie on drugs - to qualify as 'sick' ... again my GOP had to step in and say that he had things covered - but this was just luck for me, as in the past I have been massively let down by GPs who have more or less 'disappeared' leaveing me being dictated to by a grab bag of ever changing psychiatists, all of whom had opinins about me even tho' mostly they spoke to me for a few minutes (admittedly by then I was so pissed off that they didn't take long to carry on the diagnosis)...
Hmm... I said I wasn't going to go into detail... leave it at that for now. You can tell that some of my experiences have been less than ideal. Hopefully other people fare better and hopefully things are improving...
Lea
Well-Known Member
Watched this programme last week and thought it was very insightful. I don't suffer from bipolar disorder but suffer from schizo-affective disorder which is similar in that my moods play an important part in my illness. As well as suffering from bouts of depression, I have also suffered from pscyhotic episodes. I could relate to several of the people interviewed in the programme where they said they had suffered from psychotic episodes and in particular episodes related to religion. It's comforting to know that there are other people out there who have suffered symptoms that I too have suffered.
Will be watching tonight's episode at 9pm.
Will be watching tonight's episode at 9pm.
Dhimmi
Half Man Half HobNob
I found this a gripping prog, can't help thinking Fry's the only one making them like this. His "Who do you think you are?" went from the delightful to the genuinely sad in a very short prog. Tonights was similarly heartfelt and touching. You can watch hours of TV without being subjected to the kind of integrity Fry oozes in a single slot. Well done him.
Read all the posts, and quite honesty gobsmacked by some of them and not by personal revelation more how the rest of the world behaves in response, especially in rabidly labelling everything and almost rubberstamping it as "Wholly Undesirable". I assume eventually actions such as laughing, cheering or crying will be marked as disorder, and only the folk in grey will be "normal".
Read all the posts, and quite honesty gobsmacked by some of them and not by personal revelation more how the rest of the world behaves in response, especially in rabidly labelling everything and almost rubberstamping it as "Wholly Undesirable". I assume eventually actions such as laughing, cheering or crying will be marked as disorder, and only the folk in grey will be "normal".
kalidarkone
Bringing YOU round.....
I was very interested in the woman who managed her bi polar disorder through diet and stress management.
Stephen Fry,although contemplating making changes, to try and manage his mental health, seemed largely resistant. I also think the girl undergoing CBT, may have echoed his fears, the idea that managing the manic side too much would stifle any creativity and he would not be able to live up to the expectations that people had of him. He was almost dismissive of the idea of him cutting down his work load. I think he is very hard on himself an as much as he wants to feel better,he is frightend of making changes...which lets face it is most people!
Fairplay to him for leting us see what he is like when he is low,thats was obviously very hard for him.
I also see elements of my self in all of this, but not anywhere near the extremes shown.
Stephen Fry,although contemplating making changes, to try and manage his mental health, seemed largely resistant. I also think the girl undergoing CBT, may have echoed his fears, the idea that managing the manic side too much would stifle any creativity and he would not be able to live up to the expectations that people had of him. He was almost dismissive of the idea of him cutting down his work load. I think he is very hard on himself an as much as he wants to feel better,he is frightend of making changes...which lets face it is most people!
Fairplay to him for leting us see what he is like when he is low,thats was obviously very hard for him.
I also see elements of my self in all of this, but not anywhere near the extremes shown.
Sedgley Warrior
Trapesin' in an' ott like
A fascinating program - as someone who comes from a family with a history of depression of one form or another and experiences with living with depression, I found it really insightful.
sojourner said:On BBC2 at 9.
Anyone gonna watch this? I don't personally know anyone who's bipolar, but I do know there are a couple of people on here that are, so thought I'd flag it in case you're interested
I love this guy. I saw an interview on Parky some time ago as he talked about this program. I hope it's not too long before it's shown down here.
BadlyDrawnGirl
Piano Tuna
I missed this, forgot it was on.
I'm depressed.
I'm depressed.
madzone
Physically unfavourable
TeeJay said:
Agreed. When he was in the shop buying his gadget and the CBT woman asked what he would do if someone told him he couldn't buy it he replied 'Probably stab them in the neck with a shaprpend pencil' (or something like that) It was clearly a joke but if he was a normal, Joe Bloggs type person under psychiatric care and he said something like that it would likely be added to a risk assessment. As a service user I rapidly became aware that I couldn't be me and had to be very careful what I said. When I was working in mental health I did my best to make sure that what service users said wasn't taken out of context or had some sinister meaning applied to a comment that was said in jest or frustration.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Very brave of Fry to talk about his illness and all the other people who took part. And good to see psychiatrists presented in a positive light, not just the cliched policemen of the mind.
Louloubelle
Well-Known Member
I love Stephen Fry
It was the kindness, the lack of arrogance, the open mindedness and the humbling honesty of all the people involved that made this a really very special and moving programme.
I also just want to say that there are many (not all) people who are psychodynamically / psychoanalytically trained who as a central tenet of their philosophy when working with patients try to hold onto the fact that they don't know everything or even anything. Not being certain about anything is about as diametrically opposed to the organic psyhciatric tendency to need to categorise and pathologise people.
The real depth phsychoanalytic stuff, and I'm talking about the inheritance of Wilfred Bion, an analyst who is perhaps my greatest inspiration, recognises that, when confronted with things we don't understand, it is human nature is to feel compelled to firmly categorise things as a way of feeling safe, and also that this is about the most unhelpful thing a therapist can do when trying to help a very frightened patient.
I suppose that, while recognising that orthodox psychiatry can help and not help people, I just wanted to let people where know that there are good people out there with differernt ways of approaching things.
Bion acknowledgesthat 'not knowing*' is scary but famously said 'In every consulting room there ought to be two rather frightened people: the patient and the psycho-analyst. If they are not one wonders why they are bothering to find out what everyone knows.’
*Not knowing is NOT the same as ignorance, it is being open to what Bion calls 'truth in the moment', or to put it another way, that equipped with all the assumed 'truths' you have learned up to that point, you are open to the possibility of new truths and do not hide from them by using your old learned truths as a defense.
Oh dear, I've gone off on one haven't I?
Anyway, just wanted to make that point, here's some links in case anyone's interested
an interview with Bion in which he says
"The idea that it is a psychotic experience is very cerebral.
In analysis we are concerned with something which might ultimately be expressible in cerebral terms, but that is not how it appears to us as practising analysts That is one reason why we have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that patients do not come to us with little labels tied to them saying, 'manic', or 'depressive', or 'manic-depressive', or 'schizophrenic'. if they do come with such labels we should regard them as more pieces of debris.
I do not mean by calling it debris that it is not worthy of attention; I mean that it is something which has to be observed and scrutinized with very considerable care, otherwise you might throw away the necessary, vital spark. One cannot afford to cast aside imaginative conjectures on the grounds that they are not scientific - you might as well throw away the seed of a plant on the grounds that it is not an oak or a lily but just a piece of rubbish. This applies to all that goes on in your consulting room."
http://www.psychoanalysis.org.uk/Bion78.htm
Bion's theories on not knowing applied to busines sand organisational development
http://www.ispso.org/Symposia/Toronto/1999french-simpson.htm
It was the kindness, the lack of arrogance, the open mindedness and the humbling honesty of all the people involved that made this a really very special and moving programme.
I also just want to say that there are many (not all) people who are psychodynamically / psychoanalytically trained who as a central tenet of their philosophy when working with patients try to hold onto the fact that they don't know everything or even anything. Not being certain about anything is about as diametrically opposed to the organic psyhciatric tendency to need to categorise and pathologise people.
The real depth phsychoanalytic stuff, and I'm talking about the inheritance of Wilfred Bion, an analyst who is perhaps my greatest inspiration, recognises that, when confronted with things we don't understand, it is human nature is to feel compelled to firmly categorise things as a way of feeling safe, and also that this is about the most unhelpful thing a therapist can do when trying to help a very frightened patient.
I suppose that, while recognising that orthodox psychiatry can help and not help people, I just wanted to let people where know that there are good people out there with differernt ways of approaching things.
Bion acknowledgesthat 'not knowing*' is scary but famously said 'In every consulting room there ought to be two rather frightened people: the patient and the psycho-analyst. If they are not one wonders why they are bothering to find out what everyone knows.’
*Not knowing is NOT the same as ignorance, it is being open to what Bion calls 'truth in the moment', or to put it another way, that equipped with all the assumed 'truths' you have learned up to that point, you are open to the possibility of new truths and do not hide from them by using your old learned truths as a defense.
Oh dear, I've gone off on one haven't I?
Anyway, just wanted to make that point, here's some links in case anyone's interested
an interview with Bion in which he says
"The idea that it is a psychotic experience is very cerebral.
In analysis we are concerned with something which might ultimately be expressible in cerebral terms, but that is not how it appears to us as practising analysts That is one reason why we have to reconcile ourselves to the fact that patients do not come to us with little labels tied to them saying, 'manic', or 'depressive', or 'manic-depressive', or 'schizophrenic'. if they do come with such labels we should regard them as more pieces of debris.
I do not mean by calling it debris that it is not worthy of attention; I mean that it is something which has to be observed and scrutinized with very considerable care, otherwise you might throw away the necessary, vital spark. One cannot afford to cast aside imaginative conjectures on the grounds that they are not scientific - you might as well throw away the seed of a plant on the grounds that it is not an oak or a lily but just a piece of rubbish. This applies to all that goes on in your consulting room."
http://www.psychoanalysis.org.uk/Bion78.htm
Bion's theories on not knowing applied to busines sand organisational development
http://www.ispso.org/Symposia/Toronto/1999french-simpson.htm
