Stephen Fry - the secret life of the manic depressive, tonight

[Agent Sparrow]

The increasing recognition of drug-free treatments such as Cognative Behavioural Therapy and the strengthening of self-help user groups, the increased campaigning and lobbying for patients rights by the Mental Health Alliance, MIND and similar, the increasing interest in the importance of diet, exercise, sleep, stress and lifestyle factors, the recognition of cultural biases within psychiatry and not least the individual experiences of people (possible including Stephen Fry judging by some of his pointed remarks during the program) which have started to challenge some of the psychiatrists' holy cows - all of these gives me some hope that things are changing, however slowly.

On the other side however there is a large and well-funded medical industry including health workers, psychiatrists, medical scientists, pharmaceutical companies - and police, social services and a general public/politicians that demand a level of 'control and containment' - all of which tend to continue and reenforce the current model of diagnosis and treatment - which tends to be pills, or sectioning to enforce pills.

It was 5 years ago, but I was told in my first job that there was absolutely nothing a psychologist could do for someone with bipolar and it was a totally medical condition which could only be dealt with by medication. That was by a senior nurse. Unfortunately it wasn't as though the psychology support at that place was that hot anyway, there was rather inexperienced "left a bit in the deep end" me and a part time therapist. I hope things have changed, but I doubt in the non progressive trusts that they have.

After reading your post perhaps I misjudged the programme, maybe Fry is challenging in a more subtle way, thing is whilst I also understand why he wouldn't want to come out all guns blazing, I hope it wasn't too subtle.

As for the people saying they recognise themselves, in a way I think that shows that perhaps the behaviours aren't just a "you have them or you don't" but it's a bit more on the continuum. Be careful in self-diagnosis though if anyone is leaning that way, especially if what you've experienced hasn't itself lead to severe problems in functioning in your life. Whether you're dealing with official diagnoses or not, I think the "interferance in life functioning" is a good personal bench mark to whether it's something more serious, though of course I'd say even people who just notice it as a minor thing might benifit from looking at when they've experienced what they see as seperate stages, what things have been going on in their lives at the time, what thought processes they've had etc. I would say that though, wouldn't I?

 

[Skim]

I found the programme very moving – good on Stephen Fry for making it.

That was the first time I'd seen Tony Slattery on the TV for years. Poor bloke – he looked a shadow of his former self.

 

[foo]

i found it moving too, and quite beautifully made. like others, i was a bit disturbed by the amount of drugs those american boys had to take every day, and diagnosing them so young....well, i'm not sure what i think about that.

my sister, who is now dead, was bi-polar with massive and frequent delusions - very extreme. Carrie fisher reminded me of how it was for my sister. how 'the fear' can affect families through generations was thought provoking too.

i'll be watching the next one.

 

[SubZeroCat]

i found it moving too, and quite beautifully made. like others, i was a bit disturbed by the amount of drugs those american boys had to take every day, and diagnosing them so young....well, i'm not sure what i think about that.

Ditto.

When I was watching him being questioned, the look on his face showed such a history of pain, he was struggling. I suddenly said "God, this must be so hard for him". I don't know if I could do that.

 

[Agent Sparrow]

like others, i was a bit disturbed by the amount of drugs those american boys had to take every day, and diagnosing them so young....well, i'm not sure what i think about that.

I actually screamed in indignation when that stupid American psychiatrist was going on about the ADHD controversy which "was seen as a fad but now it's seen as fact" (paraphrased). Well, no!! What is almost certainly the over-diagnosis of ADHD and it's treatment with medication is still controversial, and as someone who almost was diagnosed with it as a child and who knows I would not have gone on to do the things I've done if I had been (or at the very least had a much more difficult route to get there, not least because of internalisation of the label), it's something that worries the hell out of me.

It also occured to me when he used ADHD as an example that I'm not entirely sure how they would be differentiating the two diagnoses, at least for the manic stage I'm sure the two are thought to present in a pretty similar way in young children.

As I said before, if a kid is having behavioural problems, give it behavioural and cognitive support, but don't give them a fucking label they might take with them their entire lives.

 

[foo]

that thing about not wanting to press that button to get rid of it.

my sister used to say the same. she loved her manic phases and was very artistic, painting and writing reams and reams of poetry. she'd go off for days on end, which was worrying for everyone else but she couldn't see it. one of the stays in in hospital, she painted huge colourful butterflies on the walls of the corridors at night - i wish they'd just left them there cos they were beautiful and were certainly better than hospital grey. but they had them washed off. that was another time she tried to end it all.

several things happened as a result of her illness (two kids taken off her) yet she had a possessive love for her mania, i can't really explain. and probably shouldn't try.

i got a lump in my throat watching the pain on his face as Fry answered those questions. he's such a lovely bloke.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

The American bit wa shocking - kids as young as 3 being diagnosed.

The examlpe they gave of a kid having a rage - FFS then he was back to normal, even the quickest of rapid cycling doesn't get that quick

They were taking concerta as well

 

[Louloubelle]

A very interesting and moving programme
I *heart* Stephen Fry, one of my favourite people

I was diagnosed as being hyperactive aged 4 and given ritalin with the result that I didn't sleep for 4 nights and ran around laughing and doing cartwheels

I think that fact that my mum was depressed, had 4 kids in quick succession and didn't feel ablt to cope and the fact that she nearly starved me to death as an infant were problably the reason why I was considered 'troublesome' rather than hyperactivity or ADHD as it's now called.

It seems to me that we still don't know enough about bi-polar disorder to have certainties about it and staying with uncertainty if hard for some psychiatrists to do. I felt really extremely concerned about those 2 boys in america taking loads of pills and washing them down with coke. That didn't seem right at all to me.

A very close friend of mine's teenage daughter is bi-polar and having known him for years and known of his father's depression, her diagnosis has left me wondering if his dad is bi-polar too.

Thething that's hard for people to imagine is that many people with bi-polar disorder are relatively well and lucid for a lot of the time but that this can be interspersed with episodes of depression and mania, some of which are psychotic.

I remember reading a first person account of an award winning scientist and lecturer, IMMIC she was a psysicist, who had a lengthy manic episode during which time she worked solidly for days at a time without sleeping but actually produced so much groundbreaking work that all her peers just thought she was an eccentric genuis. The 'crash' into depression happened after she got into debt by buying loads of things she didn't need and it was only then that people realised how ill she was.

Looking forward to the next episode

A great programme and big respect to all those involved in the programme

 

[Sweaty Betty]

I get confused with schizophrenia, split personality and bi polar, is it just the fact that they share common traits that make them similar......

 

[Louloubelle]

I get confused with schizophrenia, split personality and bi polar, is it just the fact that they share common traits that make them similar......

there is no such thing as split personality, people who are undeucated about schizophrenia thinkthat it's split personality but it's not

Schizophrenia and bi-polar disorder are different categories of mental illness although things are complicated because both affect people in different ways, and both have psychotic elements that can seem similar, e.g. in some, not all cases, unshakable delusions, paranoia, halucinations, grandiosity.

TBH the mental health professionals still have much to learn about both conditions and, as Teejay pointed out, some people seem to be able to better tolerate their voices and delusions when part of a peer support group or via CBT. Some drugs can help to stabilise people but some drugs have really very serious side effects.

I think that while there are some caring psychiatrists who are open to learning from their patients there are some who see their role primarily as containment and mending broken machines, and such arrogance is extremely worrying IMO

So sorry to hear about your sister foo. That's really terrible

 

[Sweaty Betty]

there is no such thing as split personality, people who are undeucated about schizophrenia thinkthat it's split personality but it's not

Schizophrenia and bi-polar disorder are different categories of mental illness although things are complicated because both affect people in different ways, and both have psychotic elements that can seem similar, e.g. in some, not all cases, unshakable delusions, paranoia, halucinations, grandiosity.

TBH the mental health professionals still have much to learn about both conditions and, as Teejay pointed out, some people seem to be able to better tolerate their voices and delusions when part of a peer support group or via CBT. Some drugs can help to stabilise people but some drugs have really very serious side effects.

I think that while there are some caring psychiatrists who are open to learning from their patients there are some who see their role primarily as containment and mending broken machines, and such arrogance is extremely worrying IMO

So sorry to hear about your sister foo. That's really terrible

Thanks for clearing that up!!

thare are an awful lot of people walking around self diagnosing themselves with split personality conditions me thinks, ive met a few.....

 

[Louloubelle]

A couple of helpful links for haylz

http://www.mind.org.uk/Information/Booklets/Understanding/Understanding+schizophrenia.htm

http://www.mind.org.uk/Information/Booklets/Understanding/Understanding+manic+depression.htm

 

[Sweaty Betty]

thanks

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

Thanks for clearing that up!!

thare are an awful lot of people walking around self diagnosing themselves with split personality conditions me thinks, ive met a few.....

There is multiple pesonalities which is usually what people think of with split persoanlity , crap TV shows will prtray schizophrenai as slpit personality when it's not.

And in general public use people say they have mood swings, split personality to expalin e.g agreessive outbursts, but not in the medical sense of the word.

Mutliple personalities mind is very very rare

 

[Louloubelle]

The current thinking among almost all mental health professionals is that multiple personality disorder is a neurotic creation of an unhealthy relationship between a 'believer' therapist and a compliant patient. When patients with 'multiples' see a non believer therapist their multiple personalities just stop

 

[Louloubelle]

thanks

You're welcome

 

[foo]

sorry if this has been covered, but is manic-depression another name for bi-polar?

 

[sojourner]

sorry if this has been covered, but is manic-depression another name for bi-polar?

Yeh

 

[foo]

ok thanks. i got a bit confused because my sis was initally diagnosed with manic depression, and much later, bi-polar.

just been looking at Fry's website.

 

[Biddlybee]

I'm destined not to see any of these... I'm out next Tuesday (will keep reading the thread)

 

[secretsquirrel]

also... did anyone else think it a bit odd that the young kid shown taking shitloads of pills was washing them down with a can of coke?

Now I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but surely the first step in treating someone suspected of being bipolar, particularly a young kid would be to make sure they had a healthy diet and cut out stuff like coke completely bearing in mind the impact that poor diet and sugar / cafeine rushes can have on mood swings, bad behaviour and depression.

I'm turning into a right food Nazi as I get older and I kept thinking bloody hell - has NO ONE addressed their diet as an influencing factor? Whilst it may not be the total answer, surely nutrition is one way of helping stabilise people?*

I, too, *heart* Stephen Fry - and whilst it's valid to point out the omissions in his viewpoint, I also felt this was because it was a very personal journey - not a purely factual documentary. I'm very much looking forward to the next episode.

I'm pretty sure I lived with one - possibly two - people who had bi-polar (Jesus - it's only just occured to me there was more than one!!!) so the mood swings, euphoria, depression and - sometimes - aggression was pretty familiar. Hmmm....

*goes off to examine self and repeating patterns of behaviour (thankfully now stopped)*

*As a side note I preceeded this programme by watching some stuff on Channel 5 - Diet Doctors? - kind of Trinny & Tranny meets You Are What You Eat where they put an Olympic swimmer on a 'diet' of 8 bars of chocolate a day - the same as the main person they were treating in the programme was eating. Predictably, as in Super Size Me, she got ill - but it took her 8 days out of a 14 day trial to give in as she had been vomiting constantly, she couldn't sleep, she felt like shit etc etc. Of course it was extreme as it makes good TV but, still, frankly scary what some people eat day to day...

 

[Louloubelle]

I will probably get flamed for this but, just thinking of the guy who said he walked with angels', well I don't know for sure that there aren't other worlds to ours and I think it's obvious that mental illness must have played a major role in the development of religion, art and civilisation.

For all I know there may be multiple universes and some people with mental ilnesses may very well have access to seeing them. That doesn't mean that those universes are 'true', they may be an illusion, but so might our own universe.

Maybe they really are jesus at that moment in time, just in another dimension or something. I know that it's really, really unlikely but I just think that part of my very personal philosophy of life is to always hold onto all possibilities and to 'not knowing'. It just seems a respectful way to be in relation to the opinions of others. There are no ultimate truths and everyone's reality is different so, at the end of the day, TBH, I have an internal conflict between the educated rational part of myself who likes to categorise things and people in terms of health / illness etc. and another part of myself who just has to acknowlege that I have no idea about life, the universe(s) and all that.

*has maybe watched The Matrix one time too often*

 

[secretsquirrel]

hey - there were some things he said that made me wonder if I needed help! My thinking can be a little left of centre on occasions too...

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

I will probably get flamed for this but, just thinking of the guy who said he walked with angels', well I don't know for sure that there aren't other worlds to ours and I think it's obvious that mental illness must have played a major role in the development of religion, art and civilisation.

For all I know there may be multiple universes and some people with mental ilnesses may very well have access to seeing them. That doesn't mean that those universes are 'true', they may be an illusion, but so might our own universe.

Maybe they really are jesus at that moment in time, just in another dimension or something. I know that it's really, really unlikely but I just think that part of my very personal philosophy of life is to always hold onto all possibilities and to 'not knowing'. It just seems a respectful way to be in relation to the opinions of others. There are no ultimate truths and everyone's reality is different so, at the end of the day, TBH, I have an internal conflict between the educated rational part of myself who likes to categorise things and people in terms of health / illness etc. and another part of myself who just has to acknowlege that I have no idea about life, the universe(s) and all that.

*has maybe watched The Matrix one time too often*

It made perfect sense to me.

There are times when the veil slips - I like the period just befor twilight when the colours go all pastel

 

[Louloubelle]

hey - there were some things he said that made me wonder if I needed help! My thinking can be a little left of centre on occasions too...

Thing is, we all create illusory frameworks of catagories to make sense of how we see the world, I think that for many very creative / artistic / laterally thinking people there is a very fine line between genius / creativity / insight and mental illness. In fact I'm sure I've read research papers demonstrating a link between genetic predisposition towards high intelligence and serious mental illness.

How can anyone live inthe world with all it's beauty and horrors and not feel a whole range of complex and 'left of centre' thoughts about this weird and wonderful place we find ourselves in. What is it all about? I wish I knew. Or do I?

 

[foo]

I will probably get flamed for this but, just thinking of the guy who said he walked with angels', well I don't know for sure that there aren't other worlds to ours and I think it's obvious that mental illness must have played a major role in the development of religion, art and civilisation.

i won't be flaming cos i agree with you. this is something i've often thought about.

all the members of my family with mental illness have had the 'raging religions', as we call it.

 

[Stigmata]

Some of those people would have been religious icons had they been born 700years ago. I don't know if they would have been better or worse off for it.

 

[secretsquirrel]

i won't be flaming cos i agree with you. this is something i've often thought about.

all the members of my family with mental illness have had the 'raging religions', as we call it.

at 'raging religions'

I thought it was pretty commonly accepted about the whole madness/genius 'ting?! Certainly, my experience (not that I'm a genius... ) confirms this. I kind of feel some people 'vibrate' at a totally different level of reality to most of us! And there's all the old conditioning arguments - most of us appear to conform to society to fit in - even the most seemingly well-adjusted person has the most fucked up shit going on in there head (or is that just me.....?!?!? )

 

[foo]

at 'raging religions'

i tease my mother that she must've had a touch of it because she was a full-on christian in her 20s

something she strongly disputes - strangley....

 

[Louloubelle]

at 'raging religions'

I thought it was pretty commonly accepted about the whole madness/genius 'ting?! Certainly, my experience (not that I'm a genius... ) confirms this. I kind of feel some people 'vibrate' at a totally different level of reality to most of us! And there's all the old conditioning arguments - most of us appear to conform to society to fit in - even the most seemingly well-adjusted person has the most fucked up shit going on in there head (or is that just me.....?!?!? )

No it's not just you at all

you only have to explore people's dream to gain access to a psychotic world lying beneath the surface of every human on the planet

We live in an incredibly privelidged part of a world where millions of people in other parts of the planet are dying of preventable disease and hunger, where some of the the biggest criminals are corrupt politicians and mutinational companies who are held up as paragons of virtue, where everyone colludes in not thinking about our mortality, where we all have multiple layers of guilt, conflicting desires and aspirations, it's a wonder that anyone is sane TBH.

What is sane anyway? Is it just an acceptance of priviligde? Conformity to the 'norm', even if it's immoral? How can anyone with an ounce of decency and intelligence not be tormented by the cruelties and injustices of the world?