Step closure to war on Iran

[nino_savatte]

Ahmadinejad said the Holocaust is a myth. And thats not open to interpretation.

So go ahead do business with the guy.

Its all, you know, a distortion...

Are you a Farsi speaker mears? No, then stfu.

 

[Aldebaran]

Since when did being Western or not make a difference to the gravity of calling into question the scale of a thoroughly domcumented genocide?

Wrong question. It should be: Since when did the West define and orders how such events are assessed and talked about worldwide. Do you want to import your history books into Iran? Be my guest (don't overlook accidentally that English is not the language there). Succes.

salaam.

 

[TAE]

It was an event which took place in the west, so why shouldn't the west tell the rest of the world about it?
And why should the west not be amazed/upset when other people doubt that it happend?

 

[Aldebaran]

Ummm...where do I say anything about this being about 'western' or not? The holocaust happened, and whether or not it's 'absolutely nothing new or amazing from an Iranian POV' (which is a pretty dodgy thing to say anyway - is it received wisdom in the ME that the holocaust didn't happen? Is it socially acceptable?) it's a historical fact, which the Iranian prez seems to be denying took place.

Historical facts can be coloured one way or an other, depending the ones who talk about them, or do you deny this? (if so, shall we discuss the Arab historical accounts of events like the Crusades or the history of the Ottoman Empire from Muslim's historical point of view or some other Arab/Muslim history, told from an other then Western perspective? You shall discover quite some facts you never heard of before.)

About your question regarding views on the Holocaust in the MENA: Why do you think the MENA is some sort of monolithic bloc where all minds work the same? If you ask people about it, do you think they all reply the same? Do you have holocaust deniers where you live?

And I'm well aware of what the word 'myth' means

Never crossed my mind that you didn't. It crossed my mind that you didn't know how I meant to use it.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

It was an event which took place in the west, so why shouldn't the west tell the rest of the world about it?
And why should the west not be amazed/upset when other people doubt that it happend?

The West can document it (which it did and still does, actually) yet why would you think the West could impose that historical documentation on others, as in: obligated history course for every school to put on its curriculum?
Do you have that on your school curriculums when it comes to the history of the MENA region? Or even one single country? In my experience "we" know a lot more about "you" then the other way round if only because of the history of the West interfering and intertwining with ours.

Youare free to be upset that people doubt your historical accounts. I'm not "upset" by distortions, ignorance and inaccuracies I encounter in Western accounts about the MENA or relates issues. I place that in context of the author's time, background, mindset and education.

salaam.

 

[Aldebaran]

You just reappear after I have asked you this question about the Van Gogh murder numerous times. Why not tell us your views? That way we know who we are dealing with. Was Van Gogh justified in making his film? Did he have it coming to him?

Why are you so out on disturbing other people's threads with non-related issues? A habit I do not participate in, nor do I want to encourage it. (Are you not aware of it that you can create threads of your own?)

And what a view you must have! An Arab scholar, Farsi speaker with one foot in Europe and the other in Arabia.

Yes, my views are entirely mine. (note: I speak more then only two languages which makes that my reasonings are bound to be influenced by that too)

Enilighten us oh intellectual one

I would, if only I was not so worried you would not survive the blindening flash of my shining personality coming through your screen. So tell me first: Do yo have fire-proof sunglasses?

salaam.

 

[Yossarian]

The "president" of Iran (I put it in quotes because other canidates were disqualified by a bunch of unelected mullahs) has made statements concerning the validity of the Holocaust and wipeing Israel from the map.

'The Zionist threat is like cancer — in dealing with it neither medicine nor surgery will do any good' - King Saud

Sure, Ahmedinajad's a twat who says a lot of dodgy things - but since when did that cause the US government to cease dealings with somebody?

 

[kyser_soze]

Historical facts can be coloured one way or an other, depending the ones who talk about them, or do you deny this? (if so, shall we discuss the Arab historical accounts of events like the Crusades or the history of the Ottoman Empire from Muslim's historical point of view or some other Arab/Muslim history, told from an other then Western perspective? You shall discover quite some facts you never heard of before.)

About your question regarding views on the Holocaust in the MENA: Why do you think the MENA is some sort of monolithic bloc where all minds work the same? If you ask people about it, do you think they all reply the same? Do you have holocaust deniers where you live?



Never crossed my mind that you didn't. It crossed my mind that you didn't know how I meant to use it.

salaam.

You have a marked tendency to put things into people's mouths that they havent' said - I am not suggesting that the ME is some large bloc, simply using it as shorthand to describe an area that inlcudes countries like Iran.

Second, I have read some histories of the crusades as told from the Islamic perspective and I have found them to be enlightening in more ways than one - both in terms of greated understanding of the Caliphate but also an amazing reluctance on the part of the scholars I read to really look at slavery and the nastier parts of history - certainly not to the levels of self flagellation that historians in Europe do at least. i actually find reading from an alternative perspective to be somewhat refreshing, have never subscribed to the good guy/bad guy view of the Crusades etc

You say historical facts are coloured by those who write them down...true, but the evidence of the holocaust, from Nazi documentation to death pits and the accounts by both soldiers AND survivors hardly create enough of 'colour difference' to even come close to justifying denial. And yes, as you should be aware there was a famous case recently of a British 'historian' who was prosecuted for publishing books and treatise where he denied the holocaust had taken place (the trial took place in Austria where such things are illegal)

Now I don't agree with that - it's a violation of free speech and quite frankly the man was an idiot whose work was contradicted in 000s of other accounts - but when a head of state openly questions, or seems to question (and this stuff about translation...if he'd wanted to be absolutely clear in such a prounoucement the Iranian civil service should have provided a version of the speech in English) a historical fact like the holocaust he's either an idiot, doing it deliberately to sabre rattle or (more unpleasantly) pandering to domestic prejudice and opinions. It's also worth pointing out that holocaust deniers in the West are usually facists and racists. Nice company to keep, eh?

So I ask again, is this view of the holocaust prevelant in other countries in the ME? I have read more than a few op-ed pieces from Egyptian, Jordanian and Iranian newpapers that don't even attempt to cover their anti-semitism.

Or is it simply that you to question the Holocaust?

 

[slaar]

Wrong question. It should be: Since when did the West define and orders how such events are assessed and talked about worldwide. Do you want to import your history books into Iran? Be my guest (don't overlook accidentally that English is not the language there). Succes.

salaam.

Quite clearly other peoples will respond as they wish. And we will react to those views as we wish. If a head of state calls into question the existence of the holocaust, for which there is overwhelming evidence, I feel able to use that as evidence of a current agenda.

No more than that.

 

[Aldebaran]

You have a marked tendency to put things into people's mouths that they havent' said - I am not suggesting that the ME is some large bloc, simply using it as shorthand to describe an area that inlcudes countries like Iran.

No, it is more that I have an inborn tendency (called dyslexia) to show some flaws in my reading skill and I have no clue about this language either (hence can easily miss some finer-tuned meanings behind words too).
You using a "shorthand to describe an area" leaves me with the difficulty to cover the same area with that same shorthand. Which is simply not possible. Iran is not Morocco like Morocco is not Tunesia like Tunesia is not Turkey like Turkey is not the Emirates like none of the is Egypt or Saudi Arabia etc...

I have read some histories of the crusades as told from the Islamic perspective and I have found them to be enlightening in more ways than one - both in terms of greated understanding of the Caliphate

Which authors did you read in which language and which Caliphate do you talk about?

but also an amazing reluctance on the part of the scholars I read to really look at slavery and the nastier parts of history - certainly not to the levels of self flagellation that historians in Europe do at least.

Really? Which slavery, where, which time-period? (by the way, you make a very weird jump when linking "the crusades" to "slavery" as if that is one and the same subject alltogether)

i actually find reading from an alternative perspective to be somewhat refreshing, have never subscribed to the good guy/bad guy view of the Crusades etc

I find some of the Muslim witness accounts rather funny (on condition of course you leave out the human misery factor) and even more so when contrasting them with the Western views.

You say historical facts are coloured by those who write them down...

No. I didn't meant that. I meant: coloured by those who tell about them.

And yes, as you should be aware there was a famous case recently of a British 'historian' who was prosecuted for publishing books and treatise where he denied the holocaust had taken place (the trial took place in Austria where such things are illegal)

Why "should" I be aware of that? I vaguely remember such such a case because I read a lot, but I need to focus on what I find important if only for my own good.
It is illegal in many Western countries to deny the Holocaust. It is for example most certainly illegal in Belgium and if i am not mistaken in the Netherlands too.

Now I don't agree with that

Well, I do agree that these countries, who had a large number among their populations victim of these crimes, make the denial thereof a crime.

but when a head of state openly questions, or seems to question (and this stuff about translation...if he'd wanted to be absolutely clear in such a prounoucement the Iranian civil service should have provided a version of the speech in English)

Sorry?
"If not in English, does not exist" ? Do you have any idea how you come across?

a historical fact like the holocaust he's either an idiot, doing it deliberately to sabre rattle or (more unpleasantly) pandering to domestic prejudice and opinions.

No. I already explained the background.

It's also worth pointing out that holocaust deniers in the West are usually facists and racists. Nice company to keep, eh?

Why should an Iranian need to care - or even know - about what types of people the West has among its populations?

So I ask again, is this view of the holocaust prevelant in other countries in the ME?

Where.

I have read more than a few op-ed pieces from Egyptian, Jordanian and Iranian newpapers that don't even attempt to cover their anti-semitism.

First of all you confuse anti-Israel sentiment with anti-semitism. Secondly, if you are surprized aobut such opinions in the region, you must go through life blind-folded.

Or is it simply that you to question the Holocaust?

This direct deliberate attempt to insult isn't even worth my answer. Next time you try something like that you go to my ignore list, question of saving time when looking at the boards.

salaam.

 

[kyser_soze]

Ahhh, here we go...an attempt at civilised communitcation with you ends up with insults (My point about translating the speech into English was hardly 'If it's not in English it doesn't exist, more if you don't want to be misinterpreted then maybe the person/organisation who WROTE the speech should make sure that it is translated properly so as to avoid this 'confusion')

I'm not confusing anti-Isralie sentiment (which I see a lot of in the UK and have expressed myself on a number of occassions) and virulent anti-semitism of the kind seen in Europe since the 1930s.

You're simply up to your normal passive/agressive debating technique again, and quite frankly I can't be arsed to engage with someone who argues like an emotionally stunted teenager .

See ya.

 

[Aldebaran]

Ahhh, here we go...an attempt at civilised communitcation with you ends up with insults (My point about translating the speech into English was hardly 'If it's not in English it doesn't exist, more if you don't want to be misinterpreted then maybe the person/organisation who WROTE the speech should make sure that it is translated properly so as to avoid this 'confusion')

So you find it the responsibility of everyone who ever makes a public statement in Iran (or not matter which non-English speaking country) to run after everyone who attempts to translate that in English in order to see if they do that correctly? Does that also count for every other language on the globe and do you think translations of similar speaches from English into other languages should follow the same protocol? How would you organize all this in practice?

I'm not confusing anti-Isralie sentiment (which I see a lot of in the UK and have expressed myself on a number of occassions) and virulent anti-semitism of the kind seen in Europe since the 1930s.

What on earth has the above to do with anit-Israeli sentiment in the MENA region?
What "virulent anti-semitsm" do you talk about? Do you believe the Europeans are heading for an other Holocaust-type persecution of Jews (and other minority groups)?

You're simply up to your normal passive/agressive debating technique again, and quite frankly I can't be arsed to engage with someone who argues like an emotionally stunted teenager .

If you ask me, being passively-agressive holds an inherent contradiction but since you seem to know how it is done: how does it work in practice?
By the way: I am passed the delightful period of my under-twenty years, sadly.

See ya.

Likewise.

salaam.

 

[TAE]

The West can document it (which it did and still does, actually) yet why would you think the West could impose that historical documentation on others, as in: obligated history course for every school to put on its curriculum?

Who's talking about imposing anything? Not me.

Do you have that on your school curriculums when it comes to the history of the MENA region? Or even one single country?

No, why should we? Nor would I expect children in the MENA to learn about european history.

In my experience "we" know a lot more about "you" then the other way round if only because of the history of the West interfering and intertwining with ours.

Perhaps you do, so what?

Youare free to be upset that people doubt your historical accounts.

Good.

I'm not "upset" by distortions, ignorance and inaccuracies I encounter in Western accounts about the MENA or relates issues. I place that in context of the author's time, background, mindset and education.

I'm happy for you.

salaam.

I hope you find it.

 

[david dissadent]

Ahhh, here we go...an attempt at civilised communitcation with you ends up with insults (My point about translating the speech into English was hardly 'If it's not in English it doesn't exist, more if you don't want to be misinterpreted then maybe the person/organisation who WROTE the speech should make sure that it is translated properly so as to avoid this 'confusion')

The Iranian press agency did provide an English translation for the most famous of the presidents anti holicaust speaches, but the western press went with an Israeli press translation.

Both most likely had obvious biases. However the BBCs Caversham monitoring service is set up specificaly for things like this. I noticed a while ago that the FAS lists the BBCs Caversham press monitoring service as an intelligence agency!!!! I guess its kind of a low budget GCHQ.

 

[kyser_soze]

The Iranian press agency did provide an English translation for the most famous of the presidents anti holicaust speaches, but the western press went with an Israeli press translation.

Got a link to anywhere that published it? Would be interested to se what the 'official' version is translated as.

 

[david dissadent]

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-17/0512297768174332.htm

Sorry I cant find a translation of the speach or even a report on it. This is the best I could find a responce too the speach but the salient details are there I think.

 

[mears]

Why are you so out on disturbing other people's threads with non-related issues? A habit I do not participate in, nor do I want to encourage it. (Are you not aware of it that you can create threads of your own?)



Yes, my views are entirely mine. (note: I speak more then only two languages which makes that my reasonings are bound to be influenced by that too)



I would, if only I was not so worried you would not survive the blindening flash of my shining personality coming through your screen. So tell me first: Do yo have fire-proof sunglasses?

salaam.

No, I do not have fire proof sunglasses

So more than two languages, wow! Your legend grows by the day.

And I wonder why you won't comment on the theo van gogh murder. It just might shock everyone around here to see your true colors.

Like the lone Christian in Afghanistan who had it coming to him.

I suppose you feel Theo Van Gogh had it coming to him.

But you are such a coward, you can't bring yourself to say that in front of everyone listening.

So I just did it for you. You believe Theo Van Gogh got what he deserved.

 

[tangentlama]

You have a marked tendency to put things into people's mouths that they havent' said - I am not suggesting that the ME is some large bloc, simply using it as shorthand to describe an area that inlcudes countries like Iran.

He hasn't done anything like you describe above, to the best of my knowledge.

Now I don't agree with that - it's a violation of free speech and quite frankly the man was an idiot whose work was contradicted in 000s of other accounts - but when a head of state openly questions, or seems to question (and this stuff about translation...if he'd wanted to be absolutely clear in such a prounoucement the Iranian civil service should have provided a version of the speech in English) a historical fact like the holocaust he's either an idiot, doing it deliberately to sabre rattle or (more unpleasantly) pandering to domestic prejudice and opinions. It's also worth pointing out that holocaust deniers in the West are usually facists and racists. Nice company to keep, eh?

As long as you aren't implying that Aldebaran keeps 'unpleasant company. I also do hope you aren't asking him to speak on behalf of 'all muslims' either!

Or is it simply that you to question the Holocaust?

You mean 'you too', which would then be easy to translate into 'du auch'. Stimmt, Aldebaran? I've seen no evidence of this either, kyser_soze, so I think you have made wrongful assumptions about Aldebaran.

 

[zArk]

`Holocaust' aside from being either a historical fact or overvalued cannot basically serve to justify Israel's tyranny against the Palestinian people
http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-17/0512297768174332.htm

agreed

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad[translated]
"They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets," Ahmadinejad said in a speech to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan, according to a report on Wednesday from Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting.

"The West has given more significance to the myth of the genocide of the Jews, even more significant than God, religion, and the prophets," he said. "(It) deals very severely with those who deny this myth but does not do anything to those who deny God, religion, and the prophet."

hmmm
Notice he says 'The West', while the IRNA speaks of Zionists.

Der Spiegel
SPIEGEL: First you make your remarks about the Holocaust. Then comes the news that you may travel to Germany -- this causes an uproar. So you were surprised after all?
Ahmadinejad: No, not at all, because the network of Zionism is very active around the world, in Europe too.
Ahmadinejad: Well, then we have stirred up a very concrete discussion. We are posing two very clear questions. The first is: Did the Holocaust actually take place? You answer this question in the affirmative. So, the second question is: Whose fault was it? The answer to that has to be found in Europe and not in Palestine. It is perfectly clear: If the Holocaust took place in Europe, one also has to find the answer to it in Europe.
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,418660,00.html
The entire 'holocaust' speech seems to be centred upon, why are the Palestinians suffering from the Israeli governments foreign policy under the protection of the Holocaust. Fair point, if the Israeli government are indeed using the Holocaust to bolster their policy against the Palestinians.



Quite Ironic that Ahedinejads statement that 'the west' are using the holocaust and place it above God, prophets and religion ( the basis for morals and ethics) yet the west then use that statement to start the war drums.

Ahedinejad is obviously doing this on purpose, he clearly knows that his statements will provoke a reaction. Its as if he want a show down with the US and western countries. If France, Germany, Italy, Spain were urrrming and ahhhinh before about Iran and what to do, Ahedinejad will have just given more political sway to the USs foreign policy.

 

[Jonti]

But you are such a coward, you can't bring yourself to say that in front of everyone listening.

So I just did it for you. You believe Theo Van Gogh got what he deserved.

You're the one who comes across as a bully and a coward, mears. Try sticking to the subject of this thread. And while you're at it, you could also answer nino's highly relevant question

What do you think of all the civilian deaths caused by the US led invasion of Iraq?

 

[Jonti]

Not only a bully and a coward mears, you also come across as an ignorant liar. First off you seemed to claim the UK does not have full diplomatic relations with Iran, and secondly you posted this misleading little gem

You speak farsi? I don't watch Fox news and I heard his comments.

But you don't speak Farsi, do you? So even if you heard his comments, they would not have meant anything to you, right? So why mention it at all, except to mislead? D'you see what I'm getting at here?

One rather gets the impression that your bullying and cowardice is interwoven with ignorant and misleading comments. All in all, that makes you appear quite the tedious chappie, I'm afraid.

 

[mears]

Not only a bully and a coward mears, you also come across as an ignorant liar. First off you seemed to claim the UK does not have full diplomatic relations with Iran, and secondly you posted this misleading little gemBut you don't speak Farsi, do you? So even if you heard his comments, they would not have meant anything to you, right? So why mention it at all, except to mislead? D'you see what I'm getting at here?

One rather gets the impression that your bullying and cowardice is interwoven with ignorant and misleading comments. All in all, that makes you appear quite the tedious chappie, I'm afraid.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/60AE1720-F333-4869-974D-3B69283105BF.htm

 

[Ae589]

For those advocating war to solve a purely diplomatic (ie, there has been no illegal action, no invasion, no threat) problem, can you tell me which historic US military action you were hoping to model a strike on?

 

[Jonti]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/60AE1720-F333-4869-974D-3B69283105BF.htm

Hmmm.

Are you saying that as well as a being a cowardly bully, and an ignorant liar, you're also something of a prejudiced pratt? Sure looks that way, if that link was posted on the assumption I don't know Ahmadinejad's views.

Anyway, you seem to have admitted that, no, you don't speak Farsi and were trying to mislead when you wrote

You speak farsi? I don't watch Fox news and I heard his comments.

So good, we're making progress in substantiating my hypothesis about your character. Now would you please try to answer nino's question

What do you think of all the civilian deaths caused by the US led invasion of Iraq?

 

[nino_savatte]

You won't get mears to answer mine or anyone's questions. He's rather fond of demanding answers from others but isn't willing to reciprocate.

He'll constantly ask you what you "believe in". If you refuse to answer this rather silly question, he'll simply dish out abuse. Oddly enough, no one asks him what he believes in...it seems like a rather silly question given the fact that his 'beliefs' are all there in black and white. But his question isn't honest or genuine; it is a means of diverting attention away from himself and back onto you.

And aye, he is a bully.

 

[Aldebaran]

So more than two languages, wow! Your legend grows by the day.

I just do what makes sense to me: I learn a language when I need it. Nothing "legendary" at common sense, is it. (maybe for you it is nothign less then a legend that people learn more then a language or two, but must that be my problem or yours?)

And I wonder why you won't comment on the theo van gogh murder. It just might shock everyone around here to see your true colors.

It must be just me... but I wonder why you alway prey on threads of others to post your nonsense in.

Like the lone Christian in Afghanistan who had it coming to him.

You know a "lone Christian" in Afghanistan? (or is that aline from some Hollywood Cowboy movie)

I suppose you feel Theo Van Gogh had it coming to him.

I don't know that person but you obviously knew him intimately, so you tell me what he supposedly "had coming".

But you are such a coward, you can't bring yourself to say that in front of everyone listening.
So I just did it for you. You believe Theo Van Gogh got what he deserved.

This only confirms to me that every day brings something new to my life: Some anonymous but obviously delusional poster on a UK message board thinks he knows me and not only that: he thinks to know what I believe.
Are you one of those clownesque, but nevertheless criminal abusive and exploitive "TV Preachers" claiming to be psychic? Do you claim also to have healing powers? Where can I watch you live in action?

salaam.

 

[mears]

I just do what makes sense to me: I learn a language when I need it. Nothing "legendary" at common sense, is it. (maybe for you it is nothign less then a legend that people learn more then a language or two, but must that be my problem or yours?)



It must be just me... but I wonder why you alway prey on threads of others to post your nonsense in.



You know a "lone Christian" in Afghanistan? (or is that aline from some Hollywood Cowboy movie)



I don't know that person but you obviously knew him intimately, so you tell me what he supposedly "had coming".



This only confirms to me that every day brings something new to my life: Some anonymous but obviously delusional poster on a UK message board thinks he knows me and not only that: he thinks to know what I believe.
Are you one of those clownesque, but nevertheless criminal abusive and exploitive "TV Preachers" claiming to be psychic? Do you claim also to have healing powers? Where can I watch you live in action?

salaam.

Maybe its growing up in a country where freedom of speech is paramount. I would give you my opinion on anything concerning everything. I would state my opinion to you as I would state my opinion to the Queen of England or the President of the United States. What you see with me is what the hell you get. Something you know nothing about.

So I will give you my opinion on the Theo Van Gogh murder since you lack the courage to provide your own. I believe its a direct assault on the freedom of speech we cherish in the west. This same freedom of speech and multi culturalism detested by some Muslims living in Europe and the Middle East.

The muder of Van Gogh symbolizes the intolerance that has driven coptic christians out of Egyp,t Jews out of Iran and a lone christian out of Afghanistan.

Some Muslims, like the ones adovocating the killing of Theo Van Gogh, need to get out the 13th century. Some want to even run their countries by a "holy book" called the Koran. I thought fundamentalist christians were ignorant, my God.

You see, I am always ready to give you my opinion on anything.

 

[mears]

Hmmm.

Are you saying that as well as a being a cowardly bully, and an ignorant liar, you're also something of a prejudiced pratt? Sure looks that way, if that link was posted on the assumption I don't know Ahmadinejad's views.

Anyway, you seem to have admitted that, no, you don't speak Farsi and were trying to mislead when you wrote

So good, we're making progress in substantiating my hypothesis about your character. Now would you please try to answer nino's question

I have nino on ignore, he is the only poster I would ever put on ignore around here because he is a waste of time.

I'm sorry, what is your hypothesis, that I am a racist?

 

[lostexpectation]

the same christian you keep sighting that was deported from belgium two years before, we dont give a fuck about them either mears

 

[mears]

the same christian you keep sighting that was deported from belgium two years before, we dont give a fuck about them either mears

Uhm, they were going to KILL HIM. Belgium doesn't go aroung threatening to kill people because they convert to some religion