State sponsored terror... :-(

[Bernie Gunther]

I think you're probably right about that, assuming they have broad support in their community, which I'd bet they do for the most part.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

True. The question is whether their overall political aims are being supported, or whether they're just being supported because they get the invaders out.

(It feels a bit like this stuff is obvious... we can abandon the basic shit, can't we? The major point seems to be making sure that we mean the same things when referring to various entities. Then again, who's going to be reading?)

 

[_pH_]

What exactly is an 'insurgent' anyway? It seems to be the term used for any person in Iraq who refuses to go along with everything the coalition wants to implement. But the media give it such a negative spin that it becomes automatically associated with violent mobs represnting minority extermist interests.

Were all the people protesting at Basra jail insurgents then? Because there seemed to be a hell of a lot of them........

 

[_pH_]

True. The question is whether their overall political aims are being supported, or whether they're just being supported because they get the invaders out.

(It feels a bit like this stuff is obvious... we can abandon the basic shit, can't we? The major point seems to be making sure that we mean the same things when referring to various entities. Then again, who's going to be reading?)

I think that's the point though. The media portrays anyone disagreeing with coalition control in Iraq (and possibly taking part in protests to this end) as a violent 'insurgent'.

I'm curious as to what percentage of the Iraqi population is against coalition control but is not part of any particular warlord's armed gang. It seems to me that such people are automatically written off as insurgents when perhaps 'dissenters' would be a more accurate word to use. When the media talks of an Iraqi police force 'infiltrated by insurgents' the implication is that such people have no right to be there. If they are genuinely violent mobsters then this is a fair point; but if they are merely dissenters who don't agree with coalition rule, why should they be excluded from the police force?

Sorry, am I making any sense? It's late...

Fridgey: can we have a 'I'm too knackered to put forth a coherent argument' smiley please?

 

[Bigdavalad]

But why should they not be dealt with in the country in which the crime was committed?

Edit: would it be the CPS who would prosecute soldiers? Surely that would be down to Military Police?

Not necessarily, depends what the crime is, where you did it etc. I think the RMP only have jurisitiction (sp?) on military property (and in certain other places, such as Aldershot town), so if the crime is committed by a soldier on leave or away from camp it will be dealt with by civpol.
Also, if you get more than two years in jail, you do two in MCTC Colchester and then transfer to civvie nick (being thrown out of the Army at the same time) for the rest of your sentance.

edit - as I also mentioned before, there are similar laws in Germany to, meaning that for many crimes arrested soldiers are handed over by the Bundespolezi to the RMP.

 

[Bigdavalad]

See...you have drawn that line so close to yourself in the sand...there is just no point even talking. And I'm pretty sure that you think that it is other people here who are like that.

Not sure what you mean mate, I'm interested to hear what case you think they should answer without any proof of them actually doing anything wrong. The funeral of the 'dead policeman' hasn't been mentioned anywhere, yet Muslims have to be buried in less than 24 hours (in the case of the Paras currently under Court Martial for allegedly murdering an Iraqi, this means that no autopsy was ever carried out, severely weakening the prosecution case). It would have been easy propaganda to show his funeral, grieving widow/mother/kids etc, so why wasn't it mentioned?

If you want to pretend to be Iraqi, why carry western weapons and carry your explosives in a British Army issue holdall? (the big black holdall in the picture is issue kit, I have one upstairs somewhere myself). None of what has been alleged about them makes any sense to be honest. There's plenty of other people out there getting the Iraqis to shoot at us, without us doing things to encourage it ourselves.

 

[LostNotFound]

Watching that video clip on the beeb site.. has anyone else noted the way the cornered tank didn't just plough through civilians or open fire on them to make it's escape? Seems like an impressive level of discipline from the british troops.

I'll probably get flamed/binned/banned for pointing this out ..

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I seem to remember a similar incident in central Iraq a while ago, where an apache gunship opened fire on the crowd around a burning US vehicle.

 

[LostNotFound]

I seem to remember a similar incident in central Iraq a while ago, where an apache gunship opened fire on the crowd around a burning US vehicle.

Can't find that one, have you got a link or more details / keywords?

Interesting the difference between UK and US troops. I was chatting to a RAF engineer in the pub the other week, he said the stereotypes were pretty much true from the guys he'd met - apparantly our squaddies are relatively well trained and disciplined, whereas US troops are a bunch of yankie-doodle gun nuts!

Apparantly

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Here's a brief mention of the incident I had in mind.

Sporadic fighting continued in seven other cities, including Baghdad. The Mahdi Army engaged in fierce clashes in the slums of East Baghdad or Sadr City. In one engagement the militiamen exploded a bomb under a US tank and then set it aflame, but the American crew escaped with minor wounds. "A U.S. helicopter gunship later strafed the street where the tank was hit. Militiamen responded with rocket-propelled grenades and assault rifles.

source

The key word here being "later". They weren't trying to protect the tank crew, they were taking revenge on the crowd partying around the burning tank.

 

[detective-boy]

I'll probably get flamed/binned/banned for pointing this out ..

But only when everyone's been politely asked to get out of the way in case they get a little bit scorched ...

 

[Barking_Mad]

Two UK citizens are caught running round a foreign country in disguise and carrying lots of weaponary in their vehicle = Soldiers

An Iraqi picks up a gun and shoots at foreign soldiers = Terrorist

That's how this works, right?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

According to "anonymous sources" (and we all know how reliable those are right?)

LONDON, Sept 24 (Reuters) - The two British special forces soldiers dramatically freed in an attack on an Iraqi police station this week were part of a team monitoring militant infiltration from Iran, the Sunday Times said.

Citing an unnamed source, the newspaper said special forces troops had been based near the southern city of Basra for weeks tracking the suppliers of armour-piercing roadside bombs believed to have come over the nearby border with Iran.

"Since the increase in attacks against UK forces two months ago, a 24-strong SAS team has been working out of Basra to provide a safety net to stop the bombers getting into the city from Iran," the source was cited as saying.

"The aim is to identify routes used by insurgents and either capture or kill them."

Reuters

 

[fela fan]

That's how this works, right?

That's how it works the way i see it mate. Exactly. Control the medium and message, and abusing power becomes simple, and you get away with it.

That's how we can hear blair or bush ranting on about how they're gonna hunt down the terrorists who done such despicable things, get this: with a straight face, while simultaneously unleashing themselves a volume of terror far greater than the one they're talking about.

Somehow that is acceptable, coz both of them got voted back in a second term.

But why the terrorism of the US and UKGs is not common domestic understanding is pretty much down to the media. They and the politicians merge their language, neatly encapsulating everything and everyone into pat little labels, with their own desired connotations of meaning.

When will state-sponsored terrorism be seen for what it is:

Unleashing of death and destruction through terror actions on a larger scale than 'normal' terrorists; and

The precursor to terrorism by groups of people, the cause of events such as 911, bali, spain, london and so on.

It is many times worse than 'normal' terrorism, yet the media manage to get SWEET FUCK ALL of that message across to their readers. Instead we are urged to join our nation in supporting our lads out at war.

It's all such bullshit.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

... and here's the Sunday Times original of the story. source The claim seems to be that they were stopped while carrying supplies for an observation post being run by colleagues, or something of that sort.

 

[_pH_]

That's how it works the way i see it mate. Exactly. Control the medium and message, and abusing power becomes simple, and you get away with it.

That's how we can hear blair or bush ranting on about how they're gonna hunt down the terrorists who done such despicable things, get this: with a straight face, while simultaneously unleashing themselves a volume of terror far greater than the one they're talking about.

Somehow that is acceptable, coz both of them got voted back in a second term.

But why the terrorism of the US and UKGs is not common domestic understanding is pretty much down to the media. They and the politicians merge their language, neatly encapsulating everything and everyone into pat little labels, with their own desired connotations of meaning.

When will state-sponsored terrorism be seen for what it is:

Unleashing of death and destruction through terror actions on a larger scale than 'normal' terrorists; and

The precursor to terrorism by groups of people, the cause of events such as 911, bali, spain, london and so on.

It is many times worse than 'normal' terrorism, yet the media manage to get SWEET FUCK ALL of that message across to their readers. Instead we are urged to join our nation in supporting our lads out at war.

It's all such bullshit.

Excellent post.