State of the far left
- Thread starter Anotherfolky
- Start date
Geoff Collier
Active Member
rauscher said:
that website has nothing to say to british people today though. It rarely even mentions issues which are relevant to people. The issues you go on about, like whose a "semi-colony" and whether Djibouti is in a period of stagnation etc is completely irrelevant to most people.
JoePolitix said:
The link here being that Ian hit a Spart on a TOM demo in the mid 90 s. Not many came to the resue.
I think it goes under the name of 'reds care' or something. I know a man who knows but your're not that desperate are you?
And don't call him Roger Dark if you find it.
mattkidd12 said:
Matt, you were involved in the WP split thread, and you know I agree with very little that the PR group says. There is though a problem. People starve needlessly. The annual budget for Hollywood movies could significantly reduce the number of people who die of starvation but we continue to make Superman Returns etc. If we were to campaign for Hollywood to be shut down for one year and all the projected budgets be used to send food to the starving, how much support would we gain from working class people?
It is absolutely insane to pay Brad Pitt ten million to make a movie whilst children starve to death. But almost nobody would support a campaign to divert funds from the movie industry to saving lives in Africa.
It is not enough to pander to immediate concerns - though these should not be dismissed. Neither is it enough to shout meaningless slogans. The problem is we only do one or the other.
We have to find a way to communicate the obscenities of capitalism to the working class. How do we do this? Let's discuss and see if we can find a way.
what do you mean they are irrelevent to most people? True enough most people aren't interested in them, but does that mean they are irrelevent? I'd say not at all. In fact understanding the period we are in, the world economy, what that means for politics across the world is profoundly relevent. OK so you're not interested in any of that. That's your loss. But has no effect at all on the subjects relevence or otherwise.
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
4thwrite said:who they?
The Socialist Party of Great Britain that is not the Socialist Party of Great Britain that publishes Socialist Standard.
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Do you know what a semi-colony is?mattkidd12 said:
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
And you are?soulman said:
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
bolshiebhoy said:
Just ignore it.
bolshiebhoy said:
Couldn't give a monkeys.
Why not?
But the "obscenities" of capitalism for british workers will be the lack of affordable housing, crime, immigration etc. These are all issues, created by capitalism, which are relevant and important to working class people. Why ignore these issues, and focus on issues which you think are important, but which most people don't?
[/QUOTE]But the "obscenities" of capitalism for british workers will be the lack of affordable housing, crime, immigration etc. These are all issues, created by capitalism, which are relevant and important to working class people. Why ignore these issues, and focus on issues which you think are important, but which most people don't?[/QUOTE]
I don't think anybody would say don't talk about housing, crime, immigration etc.
How about the world cup?Was that important? A lot of people think it was. The money just paid out by Chelsea for Andrei Shevechenko, Michael Ballack etc. could have been used to house quite a few homeless people. Instead it's flushed into the bank accounts of the already fabulously rich and nobody bats an eyelid. Not a murmur of dissent. As long as this is the case there will never be socialism.
In the end all you can do is talk about the issues you think are important. You picked out a list of issues that are important to you - and I agree they are also important to British working class people. How about child sex abuse? Is that on your list?
Are you saying that because the issue of massive poverty/starvation on continents pillaged by (amongst others) British imperialism is not important to the British working class we shouldn't talk about it?
If you are that is a position far more bizarre than anything concocted by the very far left.
I don't think anybody would say don't talk about housing, crime, immigration etc.
How about the world cup?Was that important? A lot of people think it was. The money just paid out by Chelsea for Andrei Shevechenko, Michael Ballack etc. could have been used to house quite a few homeless people. Instead it's flushed into the bank accounts of the already fabulously rich and nobody bats an eyelid. Not a murmur of dissent. As long as this is the case there will never be socialism.
In the end all you can do is talk about the issues you think are important. You picked out a list of issues that are important to you - and I agree they are also important to British working class people. How about child sex abuse? Is that on your list?
Are you saying that because the issue of massive poverty/starvation on continents pillaged by (amongst others) British imperialism is not important to the British working class we shouldn't talk about it?
If you are that is a position far more bizarre than anything concocted by the very far left.
Well, that approach has not been very successful, in countries such as Germany where domestic issues like poverty, housing, welfare are discussed and campaigned on by the left, they have had far more success, electoral and otherwise. This obssession with Imperialism, war, muslim concerns, etc to the exclusion of almost everything else is ,imo, bordering on a fetishisation, or is there some kind of hidden agenda?
Please, an end to this 19th century politics..
Please, an end to this 19th century politics..
Yes, it obviously was. People calling in sick to watch the world cup was a bit of a two fingers up at the boss class wasn't it?
I reckon most football fans would say that players are overpaid actually.
It could be, why not?
I'm saying, if you want to gain an influence in the class, you should work on issues that are relevant to them, rather than telling them what they should be interested in.
As treelover said, you're method isn't exactly successful. Whereas (where it's been implemented) the other method is successful.
A very good example of the lefts neglect: at this very moment a valuer is looking over my rented flat, the landlord is selling up without even informing us, its very likely that the flat will be converted into yuppie flats with exhorbitant rents and where there be no place for little old me, yes, the left has totally ignored the problems of the those in the private rented sector, where in most metropolitan cities, low income tenants are being socially cleansed from areas they may have been in for many years. The left, imo, indeed all progressives in this country have largely ignored the concerns of the poor for many years. Well, looking on the *** website for my city, its looks like they are not, they are even raising funds for pensioners, since when has the left done that, all it does is raise money for more demos.
oh and i copud have mentioned somewhere closer to home where poverty, etc, are integral to the left, Scotland
oh and i copud have mentioned somewhere closer to home where poverty, etc, are integral to the left, Scotland
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
I agree with you about the language lefties use. But this anti-intelectual guff is a bit silly for someone with a marxist faq as a tagline.mattkidd12 said:
its not because im "anti-intellectual". It's just I don't see the point in working out what's a "colony" and what's a "semi-colony". Why does it matter what a country "is"? They all have class structures, and I would support the working class of that particular country in its struggle with capital (all forms).
bolshiebhoy
socialism leinster drink
Just so I have this straight, can I ask do you see anything other than class as worthy of our attention as socialists? Do national oppression, racism, homophobia, sexism and other oppressions even exist for you?mattkidd12 said:
Actually Matt, I don't have a method, I'm just thinking out loud. Also I'm not trying to tell people what they should or should not be interested in, I'm highlighting something I think is important.
I will repeat that I do not think working peoples immediate concerns are not important or should be ignored. But what are you trying to gain influence for? What do you want to do with this influence? You want to lead don't you? Matt Kidd wants to be a working class leader. And where do you want to lead the workers to? This is not a rhetorical question, I do not understand your aim.
Your points on the world cup are absurd - surely you know that. Why do poor people care what happens to a bunch of millionaires in shorts?
bolshiebhoy said:
Of course that are. But as socialists, we should know that class underpins all of them. They are not equal divisions - class is the most important.
I was talking on your terms - you, as a Trotskyist/Leninist building a party, want that particular party to gain an influence in the class to lead. I don't necessarily agree with this method.
Because it's entertaining. I spend hundreds of pounds a season on football. Am I wrong to do that?
I think Matt is talking about ideas gaining influence, rather than individuals or groups, per se, he's right and all. You'll never gain any support for revolutionary ideas unless you can show that your ideas have practical applications.rauscher said:
What a load of wank!
Whether you think they should or not, a lot of working class people do care about football, immensely.
Matt, if you go back to the WP split discussion you will see I explicitly reject the vanguard party approach. I state many times that I consider it a failed experiment. It really is very hard to discuss with someone who doesn't know how to listen and only seems to want to pick an argument.
And I also like football as a game but I detest it as an exploitative business that rips off working people. There was a time when football was a working class sport. Now with the massively overpaid players, the hype, the overpriced playing strips that change every year, the expensive tickets etc, etc, its a means for a few people to get very rich.
Please note: I am not telling you to not like football, not to go to football, not to watch football on TV, not to dream about Christiano Ronaldo - I am just expressing my view. Is that okay?
Also - I've forgotten your name already - saying that something is 'wank' is not much of an argument. Like I said, I do not agree with Trotsky's basic approach but he did once write a good article called, 'Learn to Think.'
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