Standing up for science and human rights

[subversplat]

It is over emotive bollocks to refer to Newchurch as a concentration camp. BTW who has supplied the evidence of poor conditions at Newchurch - trustworthy ie non AR sources please.

I see from this that you don't actually care about the issue so won't even bother. You don't believe anything the AR say, the AR don't believe anything the highly secretive researchers say, we all say tomato instead of tomarto, let's call the whole thing off.

Pass me the firebombs

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Face it, the Newchurch site was as far from animal welfare as you're going to get in the UK, but the pro-testing people supported it because some of the animals (ie. the ones that didn't die of suspicious causes to be incinerated or buried in mass graves in the woods) went on to be used in research. Any pro-welfare people should be ashamed of themselves for sticking up for such a place, or the people that can bring themselves to run it.

I'm not sticking up for it. I'm just asking for some reliable evidence for the conditions. Also any large animal enterprise is going to have some amount of die off for various reasons. I'd be interested to see figures of die off. I'd be concerned personally if the die off got beyone 18-20% for healthy and non genetically modifed animals.


Maybe if the AR crew backed off the lunacy you wouldn't get a situation where because of fear of the loons businesses and academia didn't have to lock themselves away behind high walls. Without the antics of the AR extremists causing fear maybe society could work towards a much more accountable and open system of animal experimentation.

 

[subversplat]

It's all a moot subject now as the farm is closed, but there's video from before the campaign, showing dead and dying pigs in the same enclosures as healthy pigs. Animals have a vague understanding of death and it really distresses them when their compadriates cork it, so even the healthy looking ones are not happy fluffy pigs.

I suppose you can believe the video is faked if you like

I'm still not seeing any scientists releasing videos of their so called humane research and the labs inside. Perhaps because their idea of humane and the ideas of the general public don't quite meet eye to eye? All it would take is inviting a Panorama team inside

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I see from this that you don't actually care about the issue so won't even bother. You don't believe anything the AR say, the AR don't believe anything the highly secretive researchers say, we all say tomato instead of tomarto, let's call the whole thing off.

Pass me the firebombs

I resent the fact that you say that I don't care about issues of animal welfare. I neither completely believe what Pro-test say but I believe less of what the AR movement says because so much of what comes out of it is lies about stuff like the efficacy of animal experimentation.

 

[osterberg]

Crazy idea, I know....but how about not torturing animals at all and going for food with less additives?

As I also said:

Although I'd rather eat food with as little artificial additves as possible.

If you can't afford organic,additive free food what do you do then?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It's all a moot subject now as the farm is closed, but there's video from before the campaign, showing dead and dying pigs in the same enclosures as healthy pigs. Animals have a vague understanding of death and it really distresses them when their compadriates cork it, so even the healthy looking ones are not happy fluffy pigs.

I suppose you can believe the video is faked if you like

I'm still not seeing any scientists releasing videos of their so called humane research and the labs inside. Perhaps because their idea of humane and the ideas of the general public don't quite meet eye to eye? All it would take is inviting a Panorama team inside

I can't view the vid at the moment but I will later. I reserve judgement at present. I agree that the scientists should open up more than they have done but maybe the reason they feel they can't open up and explain more is becuase of their fear of the AR extremists.

I don't think that you will ever get companies opening up because of issues of commercial confidentiallity but if the AR extremists either back off or are jailed then publicly funded academic institutions may find it easier to be more open.

 

[subversplat]

I resent the fact that you say that I don't care about issues of animal welfare. I neither completely believe what Pro-test say but I believe less of what the AR movement says because so much of what comes out of it is lies about stuff like the efficacy of animal experimentation.

It's been my experience that people will pay lip service to animal welfare to salve their conciences that they're not utter cunts, but when it comes down to conentious issues like the Newchurch site they'll err on the side of animal cruelty (perhaps cruelty through neglect, but still the sort of thing most people would want the RSPCA bashing domestic doors down for) and generally spout some rubbish about benefits for people, which completly undermines their welfare argument.

Anyway, the video's been there to see for as long as the SNGP campain was running. As much as people might disagree with AR types, we've always made sure as to give all of our evidence up pretty easily, rather than relying on intellectual elite "We know better than you because we're doctors, so don't question us" arguments

 

[KeyboardJockey]

It's been my experience that people will pay lip service to animal welfare to salve their conciences that they're not utter cunts, but when it comes down to conentious issues like the Newchurch site they'll err on the side of animal cruelty (perhaps cruelty through neglect, but still the sort of thing most people would want the RSPCA bashing domestic doors down for) and generally spout some rubbish about benefits for people, which completly undermines their welfare argument.

Disagree there I'm afraid. There will always be people who will turn a blind eye to neglect of animals for various reasons either they don't give a toss or there are financial reasons. The problem with the Newchurch issue is that it became a cause celebre battle with entrenched views on both sides. If there was cruelty via neglect going on at Newchurch then it should have been a matter for the RSPCA inspectors unfortunately because of the AR antics the Govt and Newchurch couldn't be seen to be giving into the blackmail of a few dozen thugs. Also it is not 'rubbish' to benefit people via animal experimentation. I've got friends and rellies who are alive and well directly as a result of drugs tested on animals.

Anyway, the video's been there to see for as long as the SNGP campain was running. As much as people might disagree with AR types, we've always made sure as to give all of our evidence up pretty easily, rather than relying on intellectual elite "We know better than you because we're doctors, so don't question us" arguments

Sometimes experts DO know more than the layman but I agree that forlock tugging has no place in the modern world and that is good

 

[lostexpectation]

As I also said:



If you can't afford organic,additive free food what do you do then?

well you certainly don't protest for more of it do you?