ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Ryazan said:
"a little"?
Still. he's nowhere near as "ranty" as Richard Pipes!
Stalin, Monster of the Ukraine
- Thread starter Johnny Canuck3
- Start date
"a little"?
Still. he's nowhere near as "ranty" as Richard Pipes!
Pipes is a fucking clever man though, and woudn't say his a ranter; he just calmly puts his anti-Communist views across in very intelligent form. Despite being once a government advisor to people like Reagan, he knows his stuff when it comes to Russian history and the Soviet Union.
His book Russia Under The Old Regime is brilliant. I have that along with James Billington's The Icon and the Axe.
His book Russia Under The Old Regime is brilliant. I have that along with James Billington's The Icon and the Axe.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Ryazan said:
No doubting Pipes' way with facts. He's still a ranty bugger though!! I've always found you have to read another author on the same subject after reading one of his books to remind yourself where he's "coming from", like when you read Bernard Lewis on anything to do with Islam.
ViolentPanda said:
Everything I have read lead leads me to believe Stalin, Beria, Molotov and the whole rest of the gang are responsible for collectivization and the subsequent misery suffered on the Soviet people.
And if you disgree with any of the "sophmoric pap" I wrote about Stalin than tell me which part and we can go from there.
Because you are the one who seeked me out on this thread in the first place
Ryazan said:
true, I think Stalin had disposed of most his commissars who were responsible for collectivization by the time Beria was called in from Georgia. It was their demise which opened the path to power in Moscow for Beria. Stalin kept killing the communist elite to keep everyone on their toes.
Not when you think of "Iron" Lazaar Kaganovich. All those in the elite knew to some degree what was going on. It is believed Stalin's wife topped herself partly because of it. And, Nikita Kruschev was rising through the ranks of the CP in the Ukraine of the Thirties- he will have had an idea as to "how many people perished directly as a result of collectivisation, or indirectly as a result of Stalin's eagerness to blame his failure on others".
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
You're really not very good at comprehending what you read, are you (either that or you never bother to read anything thoroughly)?mears said:
I don't "disagree" with your sophomoric pap. As far as it goes it's solid. The problem is that it's all surface, there is no depth to it except to assemble several widely-known and believed facts and convey them. That's why it is sophomoric pap.
No mears, I haven't "seeked [sic] you out" or even ) to use the correct word sought you out, I merely asked a single polite question; which was "Have you got anything to add, or do we just get the standard high school history textbook version?".
Given how many other posters asked a similar question of you or made a similar point about the shallowness of your view, then you're being disingenuous, to say the least, in accusing me of having "seeked[sic] you out".
ViolentPanda said:
Give it up. You don't have anything to add. You just criticize. You think your writing has any depth?
You still can't come up with a way to measure standards of living, but you can criticize my meathods. Without, you know, offering your own ways of measuring standard of living.
Its amazing you didn't have a little pride and tried to come up with something.
As long as we are getting personal you know.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Mmmm, odd how what I've added to this thread has garnered favourable comment, whereas what you've contributed has attracted opprobrium.mears said:
Wonder why that is?
More than yours, anyways, which isn't difficult.
Except that I did offer ways, repeatedly, on the thread in question.
Pride? You obiously have none, or you wouldn't keep bending the truth, wuld you?
Odd how you have to drag up something from another thread onto this one and derail it though, isn't it? Wonder why that is (as if I didn't know)?
You really have no shame, do you?
I mean, you accuse me of plagiarism on another thread, and then don't have the courtesy or decency to back up your (false) claim with any evidence.
You accuse me of not trying to "come up with something" with reference to measuring wealth when I have.
And now you're telling me I've added nothing to a thread where my contribution has been acknowledged while yours has been derided by several people.
You must live on Bizarro-world.
Now stop derailing the thread. If you want to have a go at me take it to PMs or please shut your yap.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
mears said:
The only problem is your vanity. Anything that doesn't stroke it pisses you off.
I feel sorry for you. Life must be difficult being such a dick.
There is nothing to get up set about fellas.
the "red" communistic, socialistic posters refuse to accept reality
thats ok....
Reality will be just fine
Stalin and the whole Communist movement was savage and cruel and wrong
All the kings horses and All the kings men cannot change that.
the posters hatred for America and the War in Iraq conviently ignors the Fact that We Americans have been fighting in a manor that reduces innocent casualties and civilian destruction to a minumum.
Spending Millions to do that, risking and loosing soldiers, to fight that way
But to many here that doesnt matter at all.
See, it is kinda stupid to keep bringing up this genocie or that genocide
They are ALL bad and it keeps happening, it is part of human nature.
It is part of All of us because WE are human.
you can clench your eyes and wish it isnt so all you want to, but it IS.
To try and Blame is piontless.
these things just happen. feeling guilty for this historical event or that historical event is also pointless.
trying to get others to feel guilty for some past historical event is Bull,Shhhaaaaving cream....
We humans have in the past and shall in the future commit genocide
Sorry, it is just the way it is.
if you are rich enough to waste time feeling guilty about it then enjoy your guilt
dont get upset when everyone doesnt want to jump on your wagon and feel the way you do.
Some of us have better things to do.
the "red" communistic, socialistic posters refuse to accept reality
thats ok....
Reality will be just fine
Stalin and the whole Communist movement was savage and cruel and wrong
All the kings horses and All the kings men cannot change that.
the posters hatred for America and the War in Iraq conviently ignors the Fact that We Americans have been fighting in a manor that reduces innocent casualties and civilian destruction to a minumum.
Spending Millions to do that, risking and loosing soldiers, to fight that way
But to many here that doesnt matter at all.
See, it is kinda stupid to keep bringing up this genocie or that genocide
They are ALL bad and it keeps happening, it is part of human nature.
It is part of All of us because WE are human.
you can clench your eyes and wish it isnt so all you want to, but it IS.
To try and Blame is piontless.
these things just happen. feeling guilty for this historical event or that historical event is also pointless.
trying to get others to feel guilty for some past historical event is Bull,Shhhaaaaving cream....
We humans have in the past and shall in the future commit genocide
Sorry, it is just the way it is.
if you are rich enough to waste time feeling guilty about it then enjoy your guilt
dont get upset when everyone doesnt want to jump on your wagon and feel the way you do.
Some of us have better things to do.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Has anyone managed to find out what Rentboy is talking about?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Looks like an illiterate approximation of what the US right spews out regularly.nino_savatte said:
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
over here we are a bit more book-learnt than you lot, evidently......Johnny Canuck2 said:
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
...and becasue you, JC, might be interested in digging PBman out of the hole he/they were only to happy to dig themselves into on the other thread with their ape-man version of history.
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
ViolentPanda said:
Does similar reasoning apply to Bush and Iraq? Do you believe in the promotion of a more rounded view of events in that country?
BTW, what is the more rounded view of the Ukranian famine?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
butchersapron said:
Pray tell: why?
[aka:life in the paranoid universe..]
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Red Jezza said:over here we are a bit more book-learnt than you lot, evidently......
...so speaks the man from the land of the Daily Mail reader...
Does the Daily Mail count as a book where you come from?
Johnny Canuck3
Well-Known Member
Idris2002 said:
Usually, you're somewhat witty. Maybe you've been breathing in those jet fuel fumes.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
As we can see when Johnny is cornered he resorts to insults.^^^^^^ It is a sign of his desperation that he accuses Red Jezza of being a Daily Mail reader.
Still ignoring me Johnny? What a dishonest little fucker you are.
Still ignoring me Johnny? What a dishonest little fucker you are.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
jaxe said:
Really? Name one country that has actually practised communism as opposed to a form of state capitalism that was designated as "communism". If you please....
Streathamite
ideological dogmatist
what on EARTH makes you think I have ever read that rag?Johnny Canuck2 said:
what a dreadfully stupid post.
And isn't it so easy to get an asinine kneejerk reaction out of you, one disparaging NA reference and the pavlov's dog in you takes over.
ETA; johnny, everything you've posted - in all their reactionary, kneejerk glory - on this forum, puts you so very much more in the Daily Mail camp than me.
Or for that matter, any other regular poster, apart from pbman (who - as an illiterate - doesn't count). You ARE the DM target audience profile, made flesh and words.
So err, what does that say for you?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
jaxe said:
How very profound.
Ever thought of a career as a philosopher?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
There's a quantitive difference between the iteration over 70+ years of Stalins' guilt, and the iteration of G.W. Bush's over less than a decade, don't you think?Johnny Canuck2 said:
I'd also contend very strongly that, given wider media coverage and more immediate access to that media by a far wider section of the population, we do have a much more rounded view of what is happening in Iraq, and that many people, when forming their judgement on the actions of Blair and Bush in Iraq, do so from a much wider knowledge base than that from which people judged Stalin at the time the famine was ongoing.
That it was (as are most events if you look beyond the high school textbook version of history) the result of many factors, from Stalin believing that grain was being withheld and wishing to punish the social class he believed to be responsible, to "revenge" for Ukrainian support for the "White Russians", to local and regional cadres "paying back" anyone who had pissed them off. Let's say that Stalin's carte blanche allowed an awful lot of score-settling.
There are many other factors involved, but as I know you value learning so much, I'll allow you to dig them out yourself ((or you could politely ask butchersapron for assistance), after all, to quote someone (
) on this board; "Come on, you can do at least some of the work".
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Johnny Canuck2 said:
Not something you can usually be accused of though, is it?
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