Stalin, Monster of the Ukraine

[ViolentPanda]

I've reported your holocaust denial to the The Board Of Deputies. They'll be shocked and outraged. Off to the gulag!

Wow, I'm so scared I just shat myself.

Actually, it wasn't fear that made my bowels evacuate, it was the laughter at the thought of the Board of Deputies of British Jews doing anything that isn't ineffectual, middle class-centric and that might involve getting off their arses.

And if you think what happened in Ukraine and elsewhere is something to about, then you're even more soapy than your above post indicates you to be.

 

[St Elsewhere]

It's a contagion. Don't mind if I do you? So strict. So strict. For a moment there I thought this was Stormc*nt - erm 'you cunt'

So much hatred. Where does it come from? There should be a law.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's a contagion. Don't mind if I do you? So strict. So strict. For a moment there I thought this was Stormc*nt - erm 'you cunt'

So much hatred. Where does it come from? There should be a law.

It isn't hatred, it's distaste.

You're nowhere near worthy enough to warrant hate.

 

[St Elsewhere]

If I spot anything worthy I'll let you know.

 

[Ryazan]

to sum up this thread;
Breaking news! stalin a bit of a wanker and responsible for many deaths!
next up - shocking new evidence that Genghis khan may not deserve beatification after all.......

Batu was given all the lands where the sun sets to rule as his.

I wish I had been a relative of the Khan.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You mean as well as being solely responsible for every act of the Russian state while he was in power, he could control the weather too?

.

No, but when people attempted to leave famine stricken areas, he had them shipped back and left there - a death sentence.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

to sum up this thread;
Breaking news! stalin a bit of a wanker and responsible for many deaths!
next up - shocking new evidence that Genghis khan may not deserve beatification after all.......

The article was taken from a canadian newspaper. It's of interest here, because there are over one million canadians of ukranian heritage. The article points out that the Holodomor is scarcely known about in Ukraine, never mind elsewere. I thought posters on U75 might be interested in reading more about it.

 

[mears]

Lenin was wrong about most things, but his opinion on Stalin was dead on. Stalin was Cult of Personality at its worse. Forced collectivization, the brutalization of the Kulaks, moving "problem" ethnic groups to Siberia.

His brutal ideology stretched from Poland to China at the zenith of his power. Luckily for humanity his ideology only resides in that miserable outpost in North Korea.

 

[Ryazan]

Stalinists still exist, even though many are without power.

 

[redsquirrel]

Would you like help you with your bile problem too?

If you're offering to top yourself, please do.

 

[nino_savatte]

Lenin was wrong about most things, but his opinion on Stalin was dead on. Stalin was Cult of Personality at its worse. Forced collectivization, the brutalization of the Kulaks, moving "problem" ethnic groups to Siberia.

His brutal ideology stretched from Poland to China at the zenith of his power. Luckily for humanity his ideology only resides in that miserable outpost in North Korea.

More tedious rhetoric from the master of the obvious.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The article was taken from a canadian newspaper. It's of interest here, because there are over one million canadians of ukranian heritage. The article points out that the Holodomor is scarcely known about in Ukraine, never mind elsewere. I thought posters on U75 might be interested in reading more about it.

You should take into account that Ukraine was subject to Soviet rule until a decade and a half ago, and to Russia-centric rule after that, which goes some way to explaining why although most Ukrainians knew what had happened, they conformed to the official version. Anything else could be very bad for your health.
As it is, mention of the famines in an anti-Soviet context still occasionally meets with smears about "nationalist revisionism" and the like. The whole idea of the day of mourning is very new and still touchy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Lenin was wrong about most things, but his opinion on Stalin was dead on. Stalin was Cult of Personality at its worse. Forced collectivization, the brutalization of the Kulaks, moving "problem" ethnic groups to Siberia.

His brutal ideology stretched from Poland to China at the zenith of his power. Luckily for humanity his ideology only resides in that miserable outpost in North Korea.

Have you got anything to add, or do we just get the standard high school history textbook version?

 

[ViolentPanda]

More tedious rhetoric from the master of the obvious.

You forgot to insert the letters "L" and "I" between "ob" and "vious".

 

[In Bloom]

No, but when people attempted to leave famine stricken areas, he had them shipped back and left there - a death sentence.

Don't you think its just a little bit silly blaming Stalin for all of this? There were other people in the CPSU, you know.

 

[In Bloom]

Have you got anything to add, or do we just get the standard high school history textbook version?

Ouch

 

[ViolentPanda]

Don't you think its just a little bit silly blaming Stalin for all of this? There were other people in the CPSU, you know.

It also misses out that quite a bit of local and regional revenge-taking was going on over "disloyal behaviour" in previous years.

 

[mears]

Have you got anything to add, or do we just get the standard high school history textbook version?

You have made a lot of quality points on this thread. If mine is a high school history lesson yours is university league, don't ya think? No personal attacks but searing analysis.

But its always like that with you.

Found the way to measure wealth amongst nations einstein?

 

[Pickman's model]

Found the way to measure wealth amongst nations einstein?

for fuck's sake!

einstein was a scientist - and patent clerk.

adam smith was an economist, who wrote 'wealth of nations'.

so, your post should have read "found the way to measure wealth among nations, smith".

 

[mears]

for fuck's sake!

einstein was a scientist - and patent clerk.

adam smith was an economist, who wrote 'wealth of nations'.

so, your post should have read "found the way to measure wealth among nations, smith".

Do you want to talk about Stalin?

Stalin might say from his grave that collectivization was neccessary to industrialize the country in a hurry. Yes, people were starving and grain was exported but without the machinery to build the factories, the Soviets could have never faced down the onslaught by the wermacht starting in 1941.

I say fuck you Stalin. Forced collectivization surely stunted economic growth as many peasants burned their property instead of handing it over to the state. And if you didn't remain paralyzed by fear when Hitler unleashed his army in those eary dark days the situation on the front would not have been such a travesty for the Red Army.

 

[Pickman's model]

Do you want to talk about Stalin?

Stalin might say from his grave that collectivization was neccessary to industrialize the country in a hurry. Yes, people were starving and grain was exported but without the machinery to build the factories, the Soviets could have never faced down the onslaught by the wermacht starting in 1941.

it did take them quite some time to begin to roll the wehrmacht back...

but collectivization was imposed some several years before 1941. the factories to which you allude were moved from european to asiatick russia, or built in siberia. what about the command structure of the red army? didn't the changes there over the course of the great patriotick war do anything?

and i am very interested to see that the purges of the 1930s do not, apparently, seem to have cross'd yr consciousness.

I say fuck you Stalin. Forced collectivization surely stunted economic growth as many peasants burned their property instead of handing it over to the state. And if you didn't remain paralyzed by fear when Hitler unleashed his army in those eary dark days the situation on the front would not have been such a travesty for the Red Army.

i think you'll find that the paralyzation to which you allude was the least of his fuck ups. things like ignoring all the signs of the impending onslaught of the wehrmacht are, imo, more important than stalin's withdrawal upon the invasion.

 

[Pickman's model]

mears

i'm most disappointed you haven't found yourself able to respond.

 

[mears]

it did take them quite some time to begin to roll the wehrmacht back...

but collectivization was imposed some several years before 1941. the factories to which you allude were moved from european to asiatick russia, or built in siberia. what about the command structure of the red army? didn't the changes there over the course of the great patriotick war do anything?

and i am very interested to see that the purges of the 1930s do not, apparently, seem to have cross'd yr consciousness.

[/i]i think you'll find that the paralyzation to which you allude was the least of his fuck ups. things like ignoring all the signs of the impending onslaught of the wehrmacht are, imo, more important than stalin's withdrawal upon the invasion.

There is just so much to mention about Stalin to get it all in at one time. All your points contributed to the disaster on the eastern front. Purging the Red Army of competent officers was a major blow.

And yes, in his convoluted mind, Stalin ignored all the signs of the coming war.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You have made a lot of quality points on this thread. If mine is a high school history lesson yours is university league, don't ya think? No personal attacks but searing analysis.

But its always like that with you.

Your point was pretty much the standard textbook version.
Mine isn't "searing analysis", but it is garnered from personal research, because apart from family killed in pogroms in Ukraine, I also lost relatives (my maternal great-grandmothers' siblings and their children) in both the famine and the Nazi invasion, so I know that the "standard textbook version" leaves out plenty of ideologically inconvenient information

Anyway, here's a personal attack for you.

Bite me.

Found the way to measure wealth amongst nations einstein?

Why not refer back to the thread you chickenshitted away from?

 

[mears]

Your point was pretty much the standard textbook version.
Mine isn't "searing analysis", but it is garnered from personal research, because apart from family killed in pogroms in Ukraine, I also lost relatives (my maternal great-grandmothers' siblings and their children) in both the famine and the Nazi invasion, so I know that the "standard textbook version" leaves out plenty of ideologically inconvenient information

Anyway, here's a personal attack for you.

Bite me.



Why not refer back to the thread you chickenshitted away from?

Than talk about it. You have not anything about Stalin and Ukraine (even though some of your relatives perished in this area). You bleated out something about mans inhumanity towards man, but nothing about Stalin.

 

[winterinmoscow]

Do you want to talk about Stalin?

Stalin might say from his grave that collectivization was neccessary to industrialize the country in a hurry. Yes, people were starving and grain was exported but without the machinery to build the factories, the Soviets could have never faced down the onslaught by the wermacht starting in 1941.

I say fuck you Stalin. Forced collectivization surely stunted economic growth as many peasants burned their property instead of handing it over to the state. And if you didn't remain paralyzed by fear when Hitler unleashed his army in those eary dark days the situation on the front would not have been such a travesty for the Red Army.

Change the record, Mears or come up with something not straight out of textbook

 

[mears]

Change the record, Mears or come up with something not straight out of textbook

Well, I have read one biograpy on Stalin. Edvard Radzinsky's biograpy on Stalin. Radzinsky was given access to archives not previously researched. Not a text book, but very good reading.

You read any books on Stalin?

Didn't think so

 

[winterinmoscow]

Well, I have read one biograpy on Stalin. Edvard Radzinsky's biograpy on Stalin. Radzinsky was given access to archives not previously researched. Not a text book, but very good reading.

You read any books on Stalin?

Didn't think so

Considering that I haven't said anything about Stalin yet doesn't mean that I have no knowledge on the subject. You want to be more careful in future.

If you're so knowledgeable, why do you sound like a high school textbook?

 

[Ryazan]

Well, I have read one biograpy on Stalin. Edvard Radzinsky's biograpy on Stalin. Radzinsky was given access to archives not previously researched. Not a text book, but very good reading.

You read any books on Stalin?

Didn't think so

Robert Conquest can get a little ranty against Communism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Than talk about it. You have not anything about Stalin and Ukraine (even though some of your relatives perished in this area). You bleated out something about mans inhumanity towards man, but nothing about Stalin.

YOU (unsurprisingly) believe that the point I made in post #13 is "bleating". Several other posters on the thread didn't agree with you.

I mentioned Ukraine several times, and actually added facts about problems concomitant to the famine, I also mentioned why the real causes of the famine have only just begun to be officially recognised, more facts that aren't found in your high school textbook version.

You whine about my not mentioning Stalin. Why should I? His place as head of the USSR means that whether he actively participated in the causes of the famine or not he retains ultimate culpability. Reiterating the fact of his guilt ad nauseum is pointless, whereas helping spread a more rounded view of events (while not serving your partisan requirements) is IMHO more meaningful.
Another fact I have mentioned on this thread is that the famine was used to settle local and regional political scores. Stalin was ultimately culpable, but I somehow doubt that, great demon that you imagine him to be, he had much involvement at a local level.
Plenty of things said, plenty of facts that can be easily verified with a modicum of research. I'd hardly call that "not anything".

As for your "even though..." remark, you appear to believe that our loss should mean that me and mine hate Stalin and Communism so much that we unthinkingly agree with the sophomoric pap you posted. Thing is, I'd say we've learnt to be better than that, and that our loss has made us look at our history more deeply, more carefully and with less partisanship than you.

Pull your finger out of your arse, actually read rather than skim posts, and maybe you won't make quite such a despicable fool of yourself next time you start typing.