Stage Musicals

[ICB]

so tell me, is your problem with lloyd webber, or with musicals? doesn't every genre have it's commercial, money grabbing type?

i don't have a problem with you not liking lloyd webber, but dismissing musicals as for 'softened minds' is just pathetic.

And as for it being a money grabbing industry..yep..you're probably right. I went to the old vic last week and it was £3.50, but the amount of handouts and subsidarys they get makes that possible, and musicals just by their very nature are more expensive to put on than plays or operas.

Musicals aren't necessarily more expensive than operas. They share the same demands in terms of cast size and orchestra (or "band") and both often feature very lavish sets and technical wizardry.

I think one thing that makes it easy for people to look down on musicals, in addition to the obvious ALW factor, is the recent involvement of Disney rehashing their films and making a travesty of opera in the form of Aida with Elton John's music, it's a long way from Sondheim and the origins of musical in operettas by Strauss, Offenbach and G&S, even from the golden era of US musicals from the late 40s to the late 60s. It's now largely a mass pulp product for a fairly undiscerning audience who want to go to the west end or broadway to catch a show as part of a tourist experience. In some ways it's akin to ITV weekend programming or soap operas.

Another distinction between the mass-market musicals and the quality end of the market is the emphasis on showiness and frippery rather than plot and musicality.

There's no denying that the vast majority of performers in musicals are relatively weak singers and usually come from an acting background, hence they need amplification and the music is fairly undemanding as it has to take account of their limited range whereas the top opera singers are first and foremost the leading vocal talents of their era who have learned how to tack some reasonable acting onto that talent. Of course there are some impressive vocal talents in musical but they are the exception rather than the rule.

 

[han]

Musicals are a blight on the West End landscape. Any industry which can be dominated by the likes of Andrew Cunting Lloyd Webber really can't be a respectable one can it?

It's generally like a bad play mixed with bad songs, moronised for the widest popular, attention-deficient audience. The golden, camp, era of musicals is over and now we're stuck with a cheesy facisimile of what could have once been innocent fun I suppose. I don't want to suspend my disbelief - the gorgonzola'd jawed numpty singing 'I'm in the Jets' is clearly not in a tough street gang for example. I've read better dialogue on the back of a cereal packet, heard better and more singers on the no37 bus.

A quick purge of the touristastic and old-lady toting audience - a poisoned batch of Werther's originals or explosives mounted in the back of Franklin Mint tat may do it - could help rapidly diminish the market for such crap. The could then perhaps use the freed-up theatre space for some decent new writing, rather than have the same old pap on rotation throughout the years.

Musicals on the main are shitter than a particularly shit thing from Andrew Lloyd Webber's personal shitty shit collection. Down with them...

That's like saying that KFC is representative of proper deep south American cooking.

There's SO much more to musicals than bloody Andrew Lloyd Webber - there's a rich and varied history that spans back centuries!

Have you actually seen any musicals by anyone other than the dreaded ALW?

Stephen Sondheim's 'Into The Woods' is a classic example of the more artistic and alternative of the genre. It's a mish-mash of fairy tales, all twisted up, with excellent screwed up comedy and 30s german music hall style composition.

Leonard Bernstein's 'West Side Story' is one of the better known classics, with a fantastic jazz score. I defy anyone to enjoy its' electrifying music and dancing!

 

[han]

I loathe Andrew Lloyed Webber with a passion, but he is hardly representative of the musical genre as a whole, that's an insult to the musical - like saying Jilly Cooper is representative of English Literature.

'Anything Goes' was another excellent West End musical - fantastic 30s' music score, amazing choreography.

I haven't seen Sunday in the Park with George when it was on recently (though saw the TV version), and was disappointed not to catch it.

Opera, on the other hand, really does my head in. I had to study it for a year at uni and that put me off for life.....

The only opera I can bear is Gershwin's 'Porgy and Bess'. It's on at the Savoy Theatre at the moment, highly recommened - the score is fantastic and the cast would make Gershwin proud. Hardly a dry eye in the theatre at the end!

 

[electrogirl]

Musicals aren't necessarily more expensive than operas. They share the same demands in terms of cast size and orchestra (or "band") and both often feature very lavish sets and technical wizardry.

I think one thing that makes it easy for people to look down on musicals, in addition to the obvious ALW factor, is the recent involvement of Disney rehashing their films and making a travesty of opera in the form of Aida with Elton John's music, it's a long way from Sondheim and the origins of musical in operettas by Strauss, Offenbach and G&S, even from the golden era of US musicals from the late 40s to the late 60s. It's now largely a mass pulp product for a fairly undiscerning audience who want to go to the west end or broadway to catch a show as part of a tourist experience. In some ways it's akin to ITV weekend programming or soap operas.

Another distinction between the mass-market musicals and the quality end of the market is the emphasis on showiness and frippery rather than plot and musicality.

i completely disagree. yes many musicals are showy, is that a sin? that doesn't mean they are a less worthy form of art than opera.not all musicals are shallow, miss saigon uses the same plot as madama butterfly, les miserables is incredibly complex, rent draws it's plot from la boheme, cabaret has the dark back drop of world war 2. i'll say it again, the musical genre is incredibly wide and varied.

There's no denying that the vast majority of performers in musicals are relatively weak singers and usually come from an acting background, hence they need amplification and the music is fairly undemanding as it has to take account of their limited range whereas the top opera singers are first and foremost the leading vocal talents of their era who have learned how to tack some reasonable acting onto that talent. Of course there are some impressive vocal talents in musical but they are the exception rather than the rule.

i completely disagree again! where are you getting this? i've seen stunning vocals in musicals. why do you think they are less well trained than opera singers? it's just a different technique.

the vast majority are weak singers? that again is a massive (and completely innacurate) generalisation. hannah waddingham in spamalot, idina menzel in wicked. check these shows out.

 

[Reno]

i completely disagree. yes many musicals are showy, is that a sin? that doesn't mean they are a less worthy form of art than opera.not all musicals are shallow, miss saigon uses the same plot as madama butterfly, les miserables is incredibly complex, rent draws it's plot from la boheme, cabaret has the dark back drop of world war 2. i'll say it again, the musical genre is incredibly wide and varied.

The problem I have with Andrew Lloyd Webber and the genre of the blockbuster musicals he spawned (which includes Les Mis, Miss Saigon and Rent) is that I think the lyrics are witless and apart from a couple of show stoppers, the music is rather unmemorable. I'd much rather go and see the operas of La Boheme, Madame Butterfly or Aida than see their musical incarnations because you just can't beat those tunes. Many opera productions even update them or set them in a different period to make them more relevant.

 

[electrogirl]

The problem I have with Andrew Lloyd Webber and the genre of the blockbuster musicals he spawned (which includes Les Mis, Miss Saigon and Rent) is that I think the lyrics are witless and apart from a couple of show stoppers, the music is rather unmemorable. I'd much rather go and see the operas of La Boheme, Madame Butterfly or Aida than see their musical incarnations because you just can't beat those tunes. Many opera productions even update them or set them in a different period to make them more relevant.

In your opinion of course. Personally I think the scores of Miss Saigon and Les Miserables are beautiful..and I think you're wrong when you say Lloyd Webber 'spawned' them. They are incredibly different to anything webber has done.

I've seen Operas, and for the most part have found them staid and boring. I also find the audiences staid and boring. I love musicals because they are pure entertainment, they are heart-on-your sleeve entertainment. They are unpretentious. Does Me and My Girl or Anything Goes claim to be anything other than a 2 1/2 hour farce? No. But it's still 2 1/2 hours of fun. Where is the harm in that?

 

[Reno]

In your opinion of course. Personally I think the scores of Miss Saigon and Les Miserables are beautiful..and I think you're wrong when you say Lloyd Webber 'spawned' them. They are incredibly different to anything webber has done.

I've seen Operas, and for the most part have found them staid and boring. I also find the audiences staid and boring. I love musicals because they are pure entertainment, they are heart-on-your sleeve entertainment. They are unpretentious. Does Me and My Girl or Anything Goes claim to be anything other than a 2 1/2 hour farce? No. But it's still 2 1/2 hours of fun. Where is the harm in that?

Yes, we have to completely disagree on the quality of the music and entertainment value for the likes of Les Miserables and operas. Nothing will ever convince me that the composers of Rent or Miss Saigon can compare themselves to the likes Puccini, Mozart, Bach, Beethoven or Wagner.

Me and My Girl and Anything Goes are in a completely different league of course, great musicals with fantastic songs and witty lyrics.

 

[Rasberry Nipple]

Case closed

 

[tomvill]

i fucking hate musicals, they are a waste of fucking time, its like sing about tom pointless crap "im going up the stairs" then a 100 people burst out on to the stage and make a fucking dance about it, i mean its patroniseing and degradeing and what a load of bollox, and the tickets are expencive!

 

[tarannau]

The problem I have with Andrew Lloyd Webber and the genre of the blockbuster musicals he spawned (which includes Les Mis, Miss Saigon and Rent) is that I think the lyrics are witless and apart from a couple of show stoppers, the music is rather unmemorable.relevant.

Just to drill home the point, here's a typical extract from the lyrics of Les Mis:

DINER ONE
Ain't got a clue
What he put in this stew
Must have scraped it off the street

DINER TWO
God what a wine!
Chateau Neuf de Turpentine
Must have pressed it with his feet

DRINKERS
Landlord over here!
Where's the bloody man?
One more for the road!
Thenardier, one more slug o' gin.

It's like the worst kind of peurile student poetry. And that's actually one of the better ones.The prosecution rests its case. And we'll even spare you having to listen to the dirge of the music.

Han - I've heard plenty of musicals - see post 43 for my opinion of Sondheim, post 40 for my dislike and the position of ALW for example (you can't trust fans of musicals to actually read a thread can you - they probably want someone to sing and dance to it badly or something)


I actually used to be a very good mate with one of Anna Scher's favoured sons, even helped out with some of the sound engineering there, before running pubs with the aforementioned Anna Scher graduate. It's fair to say that I've endured my fair share of musicals and actors who've gone on to star in the West End musical scene. It's given me direct experience just how shallow and dslikeable the average musical is - it's not from a position of ignorance that I'm speaking, more a weary man scarred by the whole staged cheesiness of the scene.

 

[tarannau]

I love musicals because they are pure entertainment, they are heart-on-your sleeve entertainment. They are unpretentious. Does Me and My Girl or Anything Goes claim to be anything other than a 2 1/2 hour farce? No. But it's still 2 1/2 hours of fun. Where is the harm in that?

2 1/2 hours of cheesy farcical fun? Must get my novelty tie and rush down

Nice reverse snobbery about Opera btw.

 

[han]

Fair point Tarannau. Ah yes I see from your earlier posts that you've seen and heard quite a few musicals.....

they'd have far more of a musical eye-opener if they went and smoked a spliff in front of Valve's or Aba Shanti's rig, big waves of ribcracking bass washing over them, causing you to grin inanely. That's a truly immersive, feelgood musical experience, far more than listening to a load of drama school numpties sing old show tunes written by superannuated writers many years ago.

I agree with you on that, actually. I have always found that listening to a proper soundsystem with a load of likeminded people dancing and having fun is a far more fulfilling and immersive experience than sitting in an audience watching anything. Being part of what's going on, rather than just being a consumer.

The musicals I like tend to be the jazzy, quirkier, more artistic ones rather than the horrendous poppy tripe that Andrew Lloyd Webber churns out.

But they never touch me as deeply as going to see a gig, or going to a festival and dancing the night away with loads of peeps!

 

[Miss Potter]

I love them. Les Miserables, Chitty Chitty, Saturday Night Fever, Evita, I've seen LOADS. The Lloyd-Webber ones can get a bit irritating cos they sing everything but I had a tear in my eye at the end of Evita, and was beside myself at Les Mis. I'm a soppy fucker really

Oh, and going to see Madame Butterfly at the Albert Hall next month. Bet I'll sob at that one too