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St Athan

lewislewis said:
One of these is that Wales as a nation should be removed totally from the arms trade. Of course figuring out how to realise this is another matter, but the political will is there. I think the problem is that the area of 'Defence' is never going to be devolved to Wales, and won't be under our control until independence.
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That's interesting. Given that the St Athan project is in many ways a public-private partnership with amongst other companies, the missile manufacturer Raytheon you'd think that that'd be reason enough for plaid members to campaign against it.
I'd like to discuss some other points, too, but I'm working away, and am just grabbing a minute to reply here.
 
Udo Erasmus said:
This really is feeble even by your standards Niclas.

Are you really arguing that the position of a party in government in the Welsh Assembly, the second biggest party in Wales is of no significance?

If prominent politicians in Wales publicly opposed St Athan's, do you not think this would raise the profile of the campaign? Respect sent press releases to the local press when the contract was first being discussed - but a small party has trouble gettng press coverage (the press releases were not printed!), the Deputy Leader of Plaid has a media platform.

As it happens a Respect member who is Vice-Chair of PCS Wales has raised the issue at union meetings, unfortunately the right wing of the Union used IWJs argument about jobs. If Plaid and Labour left wingers had taken a strong stance against St Athan's it would have strengthened the hand of trade unionists who want to raise this in their union.

In the media (that inevitably helps shape public opinion) debates are framed within the terms of the mainstream parties. If Plaid had opposed St Athan's it would have helped exert pressure on Rhodri Morgan.

But Plaid are a capitalist party like the others and their "anti-war" stance is expendable especially as they are now propping up an ailing new labour administration.

What a disgrace that a Plaid left winger won't condemn a military academy in Wales!

This is not an aberation (as Niclas tries to claim) But flows from the kind of politics of class collaboration that nationalism represents.
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With your undoubted polemical skills,now that Respects imploding,why dont you join Plaid?
Bolster up the Left Wing of Plaid-Vote Plaid with no illusions etc
 
Two pieces of advice for Udo Erasmus- you have to make your decision soon!:

“The possibility exists of a radical alliance between the left and the national movement. The Left must recognise the radical potential of the submerged nations of Europe and we must recognise that the case for national freedom is to transform societies according to the principle of community socialism.”

Phil Williams, 1982


“Many who used to think of Wales as a British region, and of themselves as British Labour, think now of Wales as their nation, as their country, and of themselves as Welsh. If this change develops then it is bad news for the British Government and the British Labour Party, for it may presage a fusion of the national and the labour movement in Wales into such a powerful force that a free and just Wales may emerge”

Gwynfor Evans, 1980
 
llantwit said:
That's interesting. Given that the St Athan project is in many ways a public-private partnership with amongst other companies, the missile manufacturer Raytheon you'd think that that'd be reason enough for plaid members to campaign against it.
I'd like to discuss some other points, too, but I'm working away, and am just grabbing a minute to reply here.
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Sorry to quote myself - but to rephrase, I think it's impossible that Plaid can say it's against the arms trade and not against the 'school for slaughter'/'murder academy'/insert pithy nomencalture here. The whole project is so bound up with arms companies like Raytheon it's unbelievable.

Also, it seems a bit odd to decide not to oppose the St Athan Academy on the pragmatic grounds that there's little chance of a campaign actually winning, and then commit your party to the mammoth task of extricating Wales from the arms industry. Actually folowing through on the arms trade aim would mean closing down many large and small businesses and booting them out over the border - something I doubt any mainstream political party has got the stomach for.

Big ones around here would have to include the massive General Dynamics plant in Gwent, and the ginormous BAE/Royal Ordnance factory at Glascoed (where they manufacture weapons made of depleted uranium) amongst many more. Given that no ruling politician in the UK has ever made a decision that detrimentally affected BAE systems I can't imagine in my wildest dreams that any future assembly govt would break that habit.
 
I have no idea what the actually resolution was, I just got it from the press. Would be interesting to see how an independent Wales could be removed from the arms trade. Are there any European states not involved in the arms trade?
 
llantwit said:
Sorry to quote myself - but to rephrase, I think it's impossible that Plaid can say it's against the arms trade and not against the 'school for slaughter'/'murder academy'/insert pithy nomencalture here. The whole project is so bound up with arms companies like Raytheon it's unbelievable.

Also, it seems a bit odd to decide not to oppose the St Athan Academy on the pragmatic grounds that there's little chance of a campaign actually winning, and then commit your party to the mammoth task of extricating Wales from the arms industry. Actually folowing through on the arms trade aim would mean closing down many large and small businesses and booting them out over the border - something I doubt any mainstream political party has got the stomach for.

Big ones around here would have to include the massive General Dynamics plant in Gwent, and the ginormous BAE/Royal Ordnance factory at Glascoed (where they manufacture weapons made of depleted uranium) amongst many more. Given that no ruling politician in the UK has ever made a decision that detrimentally affected BAE systems I can't imagine in my wildest dreams that any future assembly govt would break that habit.
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Bigger works have closed in Wales - Brymbo, Ebbw Vale, Llanwern steelworks, Trawsfynydd was a huge local employer... employment changes. It can be done with the political will.

Which brings us back to St Athan - I don't believe it's a done deal. There have been promises to bring thousands of jobs there in the past and they haven't materialised. Also, isn't the Metrix consortium making noises about needing other aspects of deals to come through before continuing?

I'm not too clear what the campaign is currently doing - are any Urbanites able to enlighten us? - but with a left-wing leadership in the PCS union opposing the privatisation of training, that should be a good starting point for opposition. Is the PCS still opposing it? If so, how?

What else? Local opposition based on concerns about the impact on housing, roads and schools can be NIMBYish but again it's all part of building a coalition. Has anyone been down to the Vale to test the water with a leaflet or a meeting? Would the PCS come down for a meeting?

Building a coalition of union concern, community concern, peaceniks and the broader socialist/anarchist opposition to militarism seems like a way forward, even at this late stage. Is that happening? I've checked the Cynefin y Werin site but no info beyond the last demo.
 
The campaign's in its infancy at the moment. The major thing that has been done is the writing of a report by a Cardiff-based academic called Stuart Tannock - it's good, and addresses a number of issues such as the base's links to privatisation, educational institutions, the arms trade, high-tech military war, and training foreign officers from 'our' allies armies. They're in the process of getting an edition published properly, and I'll post up a PDF here when it's ready.
There've only been a few meetings so far, and there have mainly been CND-style peaceniks, church-based peace groups, and anarchists there. I agree totally with everything you've said Niclas, and don't think it's too late to turn this around. Also on the union front - it'd be great to link this to organised labour somehow. Do you think you could pass on any contacts to me in the PCS that you have so I can sound them out?
On the Nimby front - we haven't been down apart from a brief photo-call thing outside the base, but the locals we did speak to then were all broadly in favour, and a bit curous as to why we were there. There isn't a local opposition, as far as I know. Leafletting and a meeting would be a very good start to sound this out more, though. I'll sugest it at the next meeting.
Do you think you'll be able to make it down at any point?
 
Yes, Tannock's report is good. I understand 2000 have just been printed as a short pamphlet. It's being discussed at the Welsh Peace Festival in Caernarfon this Saturday.

Will get in touch off-list re the PCS contacts, although I'm sure a few lurkers on this list are better placed than me re S Wales.

The NIMBY thing arose from some comments I saw from Chris Franks, Plaid AM from Dinas Powys, about the impact on schools and roads. Let's face it, a few cleaning and catering jobs ain't going to win over some of the leafier areas of the Vale if they think it's going to hurt property prices.
 
We took the campaign to the Cardiff Stop the War Coalition last night to see if they'd support us. I honestly thought it would be open and shut... but the SWP members present argued vociferously (and in some cases quite rudely and abusively) against, so it didn't go through.
The argument was that the focus should be kept on the war, and getting as many people as possible on-board. The 'potentially divisive' and 'ultra-left' and 'marxist' arguments against the St Athan academy were deemed likely to put people off the Stop the War movement. Given the fact that the St Athan campaign is made up largely of peace campaigners with hardly a Marxist in sight at the moment I found the whole thing quite bizarre.
Yet more wierd sectarian bullshit from the swoppies, I'm afraid.
 
Apparently Jill Evans MEP is suggesting that Plaid should clarfiy their position and either oppose the development or campaign for the Assembly to be given a role in overseeing the development. Could be an interesting debate within the next few months.
 
Only be interesting if a group of anti- AMs form some time soon. Otherwise any 'debate' will be a bit of a non event, surely. Still nobody's come out against it.
 
No-one's mentioned yet that PR's resolution to Stop The War Coalition conference was overwhelmingly carried. Theoretically all STW branches will be getting involved in educating people about St Athan, and STW will be holding a demo against it. More details at http://cardiffpr.wordpress.com.
 
penderyn2000 said:
No-one's mentioned yet that PR's resolution to Stop The War Coalition conference was overwhelmingly carried. Theoretically all STW branches will be getting involved in educating people about St Athan, and STW will be holding a demo against it. More details at http://cardiffpr.wordpress.com.
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Fair play!

Can you see the 'majority element' in Cardiff STW getting behind this?
 
penderyn2000 said:
No-one's mentioned yet that PR's resolution to Stop The War Coalition conference was overwhelmingly carried. Theoretically all STW branches will be getting involved in educating people about St Athan, and STW will be holding a demo against it. More details at http://cardiffpr.wordpress.com.
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Flabergasted. Will check out the blog.
 
The Western Mail (in the shape of Martin Shipton, a character I knew well at college as an unprincipled muckraker) has finally condescended to print criticisms of St Athan - ie the role of Raytheon in cluster bombing - followed by refutations from Raytheon and Rhodri Morgan, both printed without comment. PR have therefore made a few comments of our own at http://cardiffpr.wordpress.com.
 
I've always found MS to be a good sort.
Anyway, there's always space in this world for unprincipled muck-rakers Dic.:D
 
Word is out then!

"Vale Labour MP John Smith said her comments were "dangerous nonsense"."

If this project had needed approval from the Welsh Assembly Government it would never have gotten through. There are much better ways to 'develop' Wales that won't involve cluster bombs. I fully support Jill Evans' resolution and hope it is voted through on Saturday. We must have a strong Welsh Parliament and in future a self-governing Wales to stop these unethical developments being foisted on us. More importantly a strong mass campaign against the project should be forged, and if this resolution gets carried on Saturday it will have the support of alot of Plaid members.
 
lewislewis said:
Word is out then!

"Vale Labour MP John Smith said her comments were "dangerous nonsense"."

There are much better ways to 'develop' Wales that won't involve cluster bombs. I fully support Jill Evans' resolution and hope it is voted through on Saturday. We must have a strong Welsh Parliament and in future a self-governing Wales to stop these unethical developments being foisted on us. More importantly a strong mass campaign against the project should be forged, and if this resolution gets carried on Saturday it will have the support of alot of Plaid members.
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"If this project had needed approval from the Welsh Assembly Government it would never have gotten through."

Well given the leaders of the 4 main parties supported the development - this is doubtful including the leader of the nationalists, Ieuan Wyn Jones. I see no reason why an independent Wales would necessarily be anti-imperialist. "Neutral" Ireland allowed Shannon Airport to be used for imperialist wars.

And so far, the only politicians who have expressed any public opposition to St Athan's are Cllr. Ray Davies, Jill Evans MEP and from outside of Wales: Tony Benn, Cllr. Salma Yaqoob and Bolsover Respect Cllr. Ray Holmes.

There was an interesting piece on Dragon's Eye yesterday with Chris Bryant MP saying how angry he was that Jill Evans was trying to stop people in the Rhonnda getting 5,000 jobs. As I stated earlier the opposition of politicians would help get opposition to St Athan's in the media.

Evans documents seems to make some good points but is somewhat fluffy in places based on a liberal pacifist analysis rather than a marxist anti-imperialist analysis- for example, withdrawal from NATO (good!) but illusions in UN peacekeepers and the UN as being somehow less of an imperialist alliance than NATO (bad!)

I am glad that Jill Evans has finally (probably due to the development of a No2military academy campagin) made some criticisms, she is one of the Plaid people I have some respect for.

Out of interest, if Evans' resolutions is soundly defeated will she continue to oppose St Athan's or fall into line?
 
Udo Erasmus said:
"If this project had needed approval from the Welsh Assembly Government it would never have gotten through."

Well given the leaders of the 4 main parties supported the development - this is doubtful including the leader of the nationalists, Ieuan Wyn Jones. I see no reason why an independent Wales would necessarily be anti-imperialist. "Neutral" Ireland allowed Shannon Airport to be used for imperialist wars.

And so far, the only politicians who have expressed any public opposition to St Athan's are Cllr. Ray Davies, Jill Evans MEP and from outside of Wales: Tony Benn, Cllr. Salma Yaqoob and Bolsover Respect Cllr. Ray Holmes.

There was an interesting piece on Dragon's Eye yesterday with Chris Bryant MP saying how angry he was that Jill Evans was trying to stop people in the Rhonnda getting 5,000 jobs. As I stated earlier the opposition of politicians would help get opposition to St Athan's in the media.

Evans documents seems to make some good points but is somewhat fluffy in places based on a liberal pacifist analysis rather than a marxist anti-imperialist analysis- for example, withdrawal from NATO (good!) but illusions in UN peacekeepers and the UN as being somehow less of an imperialist alliance than NATO (bad!)

I am glad that Jill Evans has finally (probably due to the development of a No2military academy campagin) made some criticisms, she is one of the Plaid people I have some respect for.

Out of interest, if Evans' resolutions is soundly defeated will she continue to oppose St Athan's or fall into line?
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Firstly my views are well known and I oppose this project and support the campaign against. Many Plaid members are the same and will continue to do so no matter what the outcome of the discussion earlier (I haven't heard yet).
Your last point though, I do not understand. Jill Evans can do whatever she wants Plaid is truly a democratic party. To an extent, personalities can do whatever they want but are accountable to the grassroots. So she can continue to have her say and campaign/oppose St.Athan no matter what, but to bring the entire party officially against the project, would need the resolution to be passed.
There are many parties that operate on this democratic decentralist ideal, including the Greens.

Your point on the media was correct it seems, but we don't know what the impact of that press coverage will be. Better than nothing, certainly, and I hope you appreciate Jill going out against the project and doing the right thing.

As far as I know Jill isn't a Marxist anyway in the way you determine, she is an ordinary person who draws influence from some of Karl Marx's ideals. Whatever scientific label you want to attach to her analysis, let's just agree that it'd be much better for humanity if Wales took her line, rather than the current UK government line.

I know Plaid is fluffy, it's a mainstream party after all and mainstream politics isn't very nice at all. But the real enemies here seem to be the right-wing Labour MP's like Chris Bryant, and to a lesser extent John Smith (who can be ok sometimes).
Join Plaid and help move it towards more sensible, principled territory. Plaid is a party of government now and it's up to the people of Wales whether they want to take ownership of the party in their community. It is the only open and democratic political party left probably in the British Isles, join it and influence the agenda while you still have the chance.
 
Jill Evans was at Sunday's St Athans meeting. Plaid are not enforcing a party line on St Athans - Jill and others will supposedly remain free to keep criticising. Jill herself did not push the matter to a vote at national council - because she knew she would lose. The fact remains that the academy was pushed through with the support of Plaid Vale councillors and clearly has the support of the majority of leading members. Jill is confident many grassroots members will support her, which just shows how deluded those members are. The 'party of Wales' will never side against UK imperialism when it comes to the crunch.
I'm sure the irony will not be lost on everybody that Plaid, nominally anti-privatisation, cannot present a unified face on the biggest privatisation in Welsh history.
Despite their nominal support for the St Athan campaign, there were neither SWP/Respect members nor South Wales anarchists at the meeting. The campaign is presently dominated by peaceniks of a certain age, and really needs to attract a wider (and more active) clientele - one reason why PR took it to Stop The War. We'll post a fuller report of the meeting and ideas for the way forward on our website.
 
penderyn2000 said:
Despite their nominal support for the St Athan campaign, there were neither SWP/Respect members nor South Wales anarchists at the meeting. The campaign is presently dominated by peaceniks of a certain age, and really needs to attract a wider (and more active) clientele - one reason why PR took it to Stop The War.
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Was that a bitchy comment?!
For fucks sake, we've been to every other meeting since the first one ages ago, and we've done a fair bit of work on this in a number of different ways.:rolleyes:
Appologies if I'm being hyper sensitive, like.
 
llantwit said:
The news reports on the ICWales website makes it sound like this was some kind of policy discussion paper, and not a resolution to be voted on the the membership. Do you know what the score is Lewis Lewis?
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/wales-news/2007/11/19/plaid-mep-defends-anti-st-athan-stance-91466-20125733/
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Unfortunately it was not a resolution, although I was under the impression it was as were many others.

It could be turned into a resolution though, Jill obviously knows more than me about the climate in the party because I'm certain the NC would back an anti-St.Athan resolution.

The NC decided not to take any stance on the issue. Lame. However Jill and anyone else are free to campaign against the academy and not be 'stopped' as John Smith MP suggests.
 
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