Spy cameras EVERYWHERE in UK

[chymaera]

I have read that particular link. It contained no more information than I had already mentioned in my post about Echelon earlier on especially the bit about the UK and USA swapping information to get around the international laws.

There is no reference to targetting and the police in that link. Perhaps you would like to cut and paste the specific sentence or so from the link, that acts as a source for your assertion that searching in a targetted area does not require Home Office approval.

This subject has been done to death here in the past. If the police want to tap a phone they have to apply to the Home Secretary to do it specifying the phone number. Other agencies are NOT TAPPING SPECIFIC PHONES, they are using computers to check for keywords within the communications system. They is NOTHING in English law to stop them targetting communication is an area because they are still not tapping a specific phone.
If you don't beleive me basicially I don't give a monkeys fuck given this has all been covered ad nausem on here in the past and is still archived as far as I am aware.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

This subject has been done to death here in the past. If the police want to tap a phone they have to apply to the Home Secretary to do it specifying the phone number. Other agencies are NOT TAPPING SPECIFIC PHONES, they are using computers to check for keywords within the communications system. They is NOTHING in English law to stop them targetting communication is an area because they are still not tapping a specific phone.
If you don't beleive me basicially I don't give a monkeys fuck given this has all been covered ad nausem on here in the past and is still archived as far as I am aware.

So I will take that as a 'no' then. You cannot provide a source for your assertion.

 

[chymaera]

So I will take that as a 'no' then. You cannot provide a source for your assertion.

I don't need to, as GCHQ are not tapping specific phones.

 

[YoursTruly]

They are already in a number of towns. They are in my town Birkenhead, Middlesborough and others. They cover the town centre and tell people off from loudspeakers at the top of masts.

I'm a real law and order fan, but I find CCTV cameras with speakers, highly offensive. Has anyone not tried to unearth one of the fuckers yet?

(I'm pro CCTV, I just find that speakers beign attached to them, well violently offensive!)

 

[jæd]

If you bother to have the courtesy to ask the question using the name I post under I might bother to give you a reply.

Otherwise you can fuck off.

Why...? Everyone knows you as Tobyjug anyhow. And do you need reminding you are allowed to post here under the good graces of the mods...?

 

[chymaera]

Why...? Everyone knows you as Tobyjug anyhow. And do you need reminding you are allowed to post here under the good graces of the mods...?

Because you are an insulting cunt. If you can be courteous and use the name I post under, fuck off.

 

[YoursTruly]

I don't need to, as GCHQ are not tapping specific phones.

That's true, but the problem with Echelon, is that legally the Americans can tap individual phones British phones and we can legally tap individual American phones....so in effect, GSHQ doesn't need to get it's hands dirty and tap British phones...

 

[jæd]

Because you are an insulting cunt. If you can be courteous and use the name I post under, fuck off.

Eh...? Do you want me to use the name you originally posted under and got banned for posting up baseless accusations, or do you want me to use the name you slunk back with...? 'Cos it looks like if I do the second you want me to go away...

(And I can't see how calling people TobyJug is an insult... )

 

[jæd]

That's true, but the problem with Echelon, is that legally the Americans can tap individual phones British phones and we can legally tap individual American phones....so in effect, GSHQ doesn't need to get it's hands dirty and tap British phones...

But do the two countries exchange info...?

 

[G. Fieendish]

Re:last post
Surely you mean 3, as Australia also possesses a Echelon Node & swaps data with the U.S....
(The U.K Echelon node is at Menwith Hill...).
Reportedly, Boeing were given & used Echelon decrypts of EADS cellphone calls in Germany, to out bid Airbus over a contract for replacement aircraft for Emirates Airlines....
Needless to say, Boeing won said contract....
(The cellphone calls were reportedly intercepted by a U.S Elint satellite, codenamed Vortex, downloaded to Menwith Hill, & hence to NSA Headquarters in the U.S for analysis....).

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Reminds me of a conversation I had when in Berlin last year. We were in a bar and got chatting to a young lad, can't have been older than 25. He kept apologising for his English, although it was far better than our (virtually non-existent) German! He asked us where we were from, we said London. He said "yes, London. I have heard about it. Very dangerous place. They have cameras everywhere, I wouldn't like that". This lad identified as an East Berliner, an East German. Considering that the Stasi used to spy on everyone, I found it rather ironic.

Stasi's been gone since 1989.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

They are already in a number of towns. They are in my town Birkenhead, Middlesborough and others. They cover the town centre and tell people off from loudspeakers at the top of masts.

You're joking?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Maybe this is the next step.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

But do the two countries exchange info...?

Do bears shit in the woods?

 

[DarthSydodyas]

I want CCTV cameras on either end of my road.

 

[Hocus Eye.]

I want CCTV cameras on either end of my road.

It shall be granted in due course. I want the contract to supply them and to provide the staff to man the observation posts and check the videos. I would even give up my day job of mugging people to do this. I would be able to show a decrease in crime figures from day one.

 

[YoursTruly]

Re:last post
Surely you mean 3, as Australia also possesses a Echelon Node & swaps data with the U.S....
(The U.K Echelon node is at Menwith Hill...).
Reportedly, Boeing were given & used Echelon decrypts of EADS cellphone calls in Germany, to out bid Airbus over a contract for replacement aircraft for Emirates Airlines....
Needless to say, Boeing won said contract....
(The cellphone calls were reportedly intercepted by a U.S Elint satellite, codenamed Vortex, downloaded to Menwith Hill, & hence to NSA Headquarters in the U.S for analysis....).

4. I believe NZ is in it as well.

 

[YoursTruly]

You're joking?

Nope. The BBC even done a demo with one council. Showed a video of the of a CCTV camera barking out " ** PICK UP THAT LITTER NOW !! ** "

 

[detective-boy]

Fact is - as I understand it - they're only relevant retrospctively i.e. after something has happened, otherwise the tape/hard drive gets wiped in a day or a week.

Not quite (but you are a damn sight closer to the true position than those who claim everyone is actively spied upon 24/7) ...

There are operators for most town centre systems on a 24 hour basis. Some (including some city areas) don't have active monitoring after midnight or 2am. That said, there are usually one or two operators for dozens / hundreds of cameras and they usually have other tasks as well (monitoring the local authority care alarms that elderly people have in their homes in case of collapse is a favourite). This means that at any one time there are probably only a handful of cameras being actively monitored.

If the polce receive an emergency call or if the control room becomes aware of an incident by some other means, they will actively monitor it.

Otherwise the cameras are either "parked" or programmed to do regular "patrols" of busy areas to maximise the chances of having footage of an incident if retrospective viewing is needed.

Unless an incident is reported, the recorded footage is hardly ever viewed (usually just for supervision or training purposes) and is wiped after 30 days unless it has been formally requested as evidence by some party to an incident.

For Dimitris' info: The positioning of cameras in public places is primarily governed by the Data Protection Act (there may be building planning regulations too, but they are not concerned with operation). The Information Commissioner (an independent quasi-judicial position) deals with the registration of public space surveillance CCTV systems. They must have clear aims and objectives and then can only be installed and operated in pursuit of those aims - hence a traffic system would not be allowed to be able to zoom in on drivers faces, for instance. Private individuals and companies can install CCTV on their own property for security purposes as much as they like. Fixed position cameras on (eg) outside walls may catch a bit of the pavement but, so long as they are not used for tracking people, they would not need to be registered.

 

[detective-boy]

I heard of a couple who were taken to court for having sex on the roof of a building, where they had been caught in the act by a CCTV camera. The couple had obviously saught privacy for their outside-sex, but becaus the CCTV had spotted them (and zoomed in probably for a closer look) they were done for lewd behaviour.

I was outraged.

People have a right to seek privacy, even outside of their homes and other designated areas.

There must have been more to the case than that. Do you have a source for the original case / story?

(a) A CCTV system is not authorised to intrude into private places - sometimes it is inevitable but any recorded footage would itself prove a breach of the DPA; (b) A camera illegally viewing into private space would not be sufficient to amount to an act being in public; and (c) there is no such offence as "lewd behaviour" - it could cover a number of things, many of which are not offences in private places.

 

[detective-boy]

In Britain we have lots of ‘speed cameras’, these have now been converted to record car movements by keeping track of car journeys (numberplates) in a database.

No. They haven't.

Most speed cameras are analogue, not digital and are incapable of that. The digital cameras used for speed enforcement do retain numbers (they have ANPR fitted as a means of automating the issue of fixed penalty notices to registered keepers) but the period for which the data is retained is governed by the need for their speed enforcement role.

The cameras you are thinking of are a seperate system of ANPR cameras which log index numbers into a seperate database for crime detection purposes and for which the data is retained in connection with that role. I think the retention period for this system is now at least a year and maybe three (there was publicity about it about nine months ago).

 

[YoursTruly]

I would like to add. There is software available for commercial CCTV systems which can always blank out a private area. So if you are concerned about a council camera (Or any other commercial camera) having the ability to intrude on private space, they can usually install software which permantly blanks out the private space with black square(s).

 

[detective-boy]

Another aspect of surveillance that not many people are aware of is that we are listened to in our own homes via our telephones. Using ‘key word’ recognition and so forth. Not when we are on the phone (although that may be), but when the phone is 'hung up'.

How can you be "listened in to" when you have hung up?

There is the Echelon system, but the practicalities of either listening to every domestic and international call for keywords and then having someone review any "hits" or, as you would have us believe, recording every call and then listening to it later, reviewing hits, etc. are simply unattainable. I think you'll find that it is primarily a focused system, used where suspects are identified, or where a particular location is identified as a focus, or on all lines between particular countries.

 

[detective-boy]

IThey had used the cctv cameras to follow me through the hospital, in the lift, up three floors, down a long corridor and into the ward!!!

Not necessarily - they may just have followed you into the hospital and then checked the admission records for about that time ...

But even if they did, isn't that what they're there for? Following people who have committed crimes and anti-social behaviour and allowing them to be dealt with according to law? You wouldn't have been tracked to your ward if you hadn't committed an offence of criminal damage, would you?

If you're going to be outraged at being caught, don't commit the crime.

 

[detective-boy]

funnily enough i saw something like what tobyjug is saying in the daily mail today

No, I don't think you did.

You probably saw their front page splash on how telephone companies are now going to be authorised to retain all call data (numbers, cell-sites and times, not content) for a year instead of the lesser period they retained it for for their internal billing purposes. This data wioll then be available on a case-by-case basis (and NOT routinely and wholesale as the fuckwit paper implied) to assist in criminal investigations by a number of agencies with prosecution responsibilities (of which there are dozens, the vast majority of which hardly ever engage in a prosecution which merits such an enquiry).

 

[detective-boy]

Many schools are fingerprinting children and enroling them into the database for example. This is initillay to give them access to free school meals.

No, they're not. They're taking A single fingerprint which is used to confirm identity. Similar systems are used as part of some access control systems (as a biometric, the fingerprint is far, far more secure than any code number or whatever). The only "database" the print is entered in is the one attached to the lock and reader.

 

[detective-boy]

(I'm pro CCTV, I just find that speakers beign attached to them, well violently offensive!)

Does that not depend on what the speakers are used for?

(e.g. if someone was getting a kicking and they were used to shout that they were on CCTV and the police had been called, would that not be a good thing as it may save someone being assaulted further or even killed, where a mute camera could not?)

 

[YoursTruly]

How can you be "listened in to" when you have hung up?

There is the Echelon system, but the practicalities of either listening to every domestic and international call for keywords and then having someone review any "hits" or, as you would have us believe, recording every call and then listening to it later, reviewing hits, etc. are simply unattainable. I think you'll find that it is primarily a focused system, used where suspects are identified, or where a particular location is identified as a focus, or on all lines between particular countries.

Hi mate. The claim that is being made. Is that if H.M. secret services take an interest in you. H.M secret services, merely ask the Americans to use Echelon to tap your phone and send back the info to H.M. secret services as none of that would break the law and is technically possible. It's a real concern of the British public and the government should address it.

e2a. Most of us are aware of the mass computational scanning of keywords that echelon is normally used for.

 

[detective-boy]

I want the contract to supply them and to provide the staff to man the observation posts and check the videos. I would even give up my day job of mugging people to do this. I would be able to show a decrease in crime figures from day one.

Contrary to the deluded paranoids view, not only is most CCTV footage never monitored in real-time or retrospectively there is actually much recorded footage which is likely to contain evidence of minor offences which is never viewed due to the time it takes and a lack of police resources to do so. Go to any town centre system and you'll find a small mountain of requested, but uncollected, tapes of crimes never viewed ...

 

[YoursTruly]

Does that not depend on what the speakers are used for?

(e.g. if someone was getting a kicking and they were used to shout that they were on CCTV and the police had been called, would that not be a good thing as it may save someone being assaulted further or even killed, where a mute camera could not?)

If we installed a taser on the fucking thing it would save even more lives, but it wouldn't make it right, would it? The danger is that you have something that is too easy to abuse and to be honest, this whole speakers on the CCTVs is a wet dream for the anti-CCTV brigade, because it starts to prove their belief that CCTVs are a slippery slope, as correct.