"Spot The White Man-Immigration Invasion-Peckham" YouTube

[Corax]

i think the point is this is England so you would expect to see English people in up-and coming Lordship lane. (Memories of childhood- Nan lived off Lordship Lane)

You seem to be confusing 'english' with white.

 

[fogbat]

Me too, White people ar so boring and uncool, I don't want to be associated with them, no way

I've just invented a new word: bronzey. It's like irony, only not as good.

 

[THINK!]

You seem to be confusing 'english' with white.

and you seem to be baiting a trap.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Perhaps you're putting words in my mouth...

No, I asked you questions. That means I was asking YOU for answers.

The scramble for school places in 'desirable' areas and the long-term trend for migration by all ethnic groups outwards to the leafy suburbs is not a figment of my imagination.

Who said it was? You suggestion though was that African and Asian parents are trying to send their children to majority White schools. I am suggesting two things, this is not because they are majority White and that it has more to do with academic success and opportunity. I see it as more of a class than a race issue myself. It perhaps also suggests that African and Asian parents are 'less' prejudiced than others?

My words were 'some correlation with'. That is not the same thing at all as 'the majority of'.

But hopefully your error was made in haste, rather than on purpose.

Okay so maybe you should quantify what you mean by 'some correlation with'?

I don't necessarily disagree with you but I do want to be sure what you are saying.

In London, they're disproportionately involved in gang culture, knife and gun crime.

Yes they are, that does not mean however that the majority of them are though.

I did know that, and some West African families send their children to schools in Ghana and Nigeria. Some Indian families sent their children to India for their schooling as well.

The reasons are pretty obvious: they think their children will do better in them than in the schools available to them in Britain. School fees will be cheaper in those countries than here, and I'd guess that the curriculum is more firmly focused on the traditional three Rs. Also, their children can be removed from gang culture influences by sending them abroad for their schooling.

Yes to those reasons, add to them instutionised racism, widespread misrepresenting of the actual numbers of them involved in illegal/criminal behaviour, the desire for their children to be disciplined and have respect for themselves by having positive role models.

That's quite possible. I don't believe that there are innate racial differences in propensity to violence, because the evidence disproves it. History disproves it.

Glad to hear it.

In general, yes, but there will average differences among those groups reflecting different histories, economic class and so on.

Question for you: What do you think explains the differences in exclusion rates in that chart?

I think there are many factors (not necessarily specific to this group) which include:

Socio-economic reasons.
The breakdown of family units.
Institutionised racism.
A lack of and access to positive and successful role models, including teachers, community members, parents, relatives.
An 'idolisation' of fame and fast money. (Youth culture fallout of capitalism)
Mental health issues brought on by all of the above and a perceived lack of choices when it comes to identity formation etc...

I certainly wouldn't be against sending my children to such a school, and I have never said that I would be. My concern would be that they'd get a good education - end of.

Good for you.

You are constructing straw man arguments, something you do quite a lot.

Well you may see it like that. I don't.

You joined the thread after stoatboy was pussy footing around his own prejudices. You presented your arguments as if to say what he was saying was okay cos African and Asian parents do it too.

In doing so you had the audacity to speak for African and Asian parents on the back of what you read in newspapers and magazines. Articles which, I believe are not often written by African and Asian parents or with their values/interests at heart.

I responded to you in the way I did because I felt you were being more than a little patronising in doing so.

 

[Corax]

and you seem to be baiting a trap.

What the fuck is your problem with smilies?

 

[BlackArab]

You would expect there to be some correlation between aggressive behaviour and exclusion from school.

My impressions come from reading newspaper and magazine articles over the years.

There's your correlation right there.

 

[BlackArab]

Don't give a toss either way to be honest. I'd love to have greengrocers, fishmongers and butchers like that near me though.

One of the sheer joys of living near Stapleton Road (Zaskar's vid). Possibly one of the last High Streets in Britain not dominated by chain stores, not even a Tesco Metro. I can eat and drink my way around the world without leaving the area.

 

[IMR]

Okay so maybe you should quantify what you mean by 'some correlation with'?

I can't quantify it, hence the cautious words 'some correlation'. School exclusions aren't done on a whim, they're usually for fairly serious things. Fighting will be among them.

So it is more reasonable to assume that there is a positive relationship or correlation of unknown strength between exclusion rates and getting involved in fights at school, but not some neat one-to-one correspondence.

Perhaps there are enough racist teachers punishing black Caribbean pupils unfairly to seriously skew the figures, similar to the racist biases of Enfield magistrates reported by Iris Josiah.

But the patterns appear too specific for that.

You suggestion though was that African and Asian parents are trying to send their children to majority White schools. I am suggesting two things, this is not because they are majority White and that it has more to do with academic success and opportunity. I see it as more of a class than a race issue myself.

Yes, those things and availability. It's unclear to me how much race and class obscure each other in such matters, other than that they are likely to.
Race or ethnicity may also feature in the decisions of those African and Asian parents sending their children to schools abroad. As you wrote on that subject:

Yes to those reasons, add to them instutionised racism, widespread misrepresenting of the actual numbers of them involved in illegal/criminal behaviour, the desire for their children to be disciplined and have respect for themselves by having positive role models.

In other words, they believe children their children will thrive better when taught in the more supportive environment of a Nigerian or Barbadian or Indian school, by people of their own ethnic group.

But what of white parents who consciously or unconsciously seek to get their children into all or mostly white schools?

Those group characteristics which affect white children's outcomes are ones of class, not race. It might well strike you as absurd to draw such a comparison in the first place - why do it?

First, to get in there before someone else does. Second, to show it as an example of the 'sauce for the goose means sauce for the gander'-type arguments seem to be deployed more commonly than before. 'If there's a Black Police Officers' Association, why can't there be a white one?' 'If Lee Jasper wants schools for black kids, why can't we ask for schools for white kids'? and so on and so forth.

Not much to say on that other than I don't see what good can come from allocating resources along ethnic lines, but that there is little than can be done or should be done about individual, private choices. If African parents want to send their kids to school in Accra, that's up to them. If white parents want to move to Sussex or somewhere so their kids can go to 95% white schools, that's up to them.

All that can be hoped for is that not many will want to do so, and the best way to ensure that is to make raise all schools to equally good standards.

Related to individual choices, you asked:

It perhaps also suggests that African and Asian parents are 'less' prejudiced than others?

African and Asian parents are constrained by availability of schools where white pupils are in a minority. We don't know what the outcomes would be if Britain was like a kind of scaled-up Newham, where no single ethnic group was in a large majority. Otherwise there are things like attitude survey results, which I wouldn't place much store by, or measures of what people actually do, which are better.

One of the better indicators might be data on inter-ethnic marriage. There are obvious limits to what can be inferred from them, but the 2001 rates for whites come out lower than for either male or female mixed race, black Caribbeans, male black Africans, 'other' Asian, 'other' Black, female Chinese. They are slightly lower than female black African, roughly equivalent for male Chinese, and higher than male and female Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Indians.

Relevant National Statistics webpage here.

Note that the graph on that page may be slightly misleading. Whites involved in inter-ethnic marriages did so at a rate of around 12% of their maximum possible total. The chart doesn't include cohabitees either.

Long and the short of it: on the important measure of who's marrying whom, white people came out middling.

 

[THINK!]

I've just invented a new word: bronzey. It's like irony, only not as good.

You seem to be confusing irony which is usually associated with Incongruity with taking-the-piss.