speech of the week

[Azrael]

It's class hatred. A very good thing in my book. If you don't hate the injustice of the class system that keeps the majority of the world's population in an airtight cage of poverty then you must have a fundamental part of your soul missing.

What do you mean by "class hatred"? Hating a system, or hating people who happen to occupy a certain position within it?

As for the state of my soul, if it exists, it wants a system that gives everyone equality of access so far as is possible. What replacement do you suggest?

 

[Streathamite]

he followed the tedious Conservative policy of chasing power at all cost. I suspect it's the only real policy they have.

you only 'suspect'? And it's taken this long to get round to realising just what is the fundamental and sole real raison d'etre of the tories?
fuck a duck!

 

[Streathamite]

It's tribal hatred, nasty, personalised and devoid of substance.

bollocks, it's righteous class hatred, and with it a hatred of the deprivation and social and economic injustice that are its' hallmarks.
And I hate both the system AND the ruling class, and make no apologies for doing so.

 

[Azrael]

you only 'suspect'? And it's taken this long to get round to realising just what is the fundamental and sole real raison d'etre of the tories?
fuck a duck!

Actually I used to buy the "all they care about is power" line in general, and hate the Conservative Party in particular. I'm an apostate in part because I don't think it's that simple any more. That change of heart came from talking to parliamentary candidates. There's easier ways to get money and power. But the Tories especially, being weak on dogma, fall victim to chasing office at any cost. Doubtless it's partly for noble motives.

bollocks, it's righteous class hatred, and with it a hatred of the deprivation and social and economic injustice that are its' hallmarks.
And I hate both the system AND the ruling class, and make no apologies for doing so.

How do you define the "ruling class"? There's a vast metropolitain elite. Do you hate all individuals born into this ruling class, regardless of their actions? If not, how do you decide which people to hate? And at what economic point does the hatred cease?

 

[Streathamite]

Actually I used to buy the "all they care about is power" line in general, and hate the Conservative Party in particular. I'm an apostate in part because I don't think it's that simple any more. That change of heart came from talking to parliamentary candidates. There's easier ways to get money and power. But the Tories especially, being weak on dogma, fall victim to chasing office at any cost. Doubtless it's partly for noble motives.

How do you define the "ruling class"? There's a vast metropolitain elite. Do you hate all individuals born into this ruling class, regardless of their actions? If not, how do you decide which people to hate? And at what economic point does the hatred cease?

The ruling class are those who control/own the means of production, distribution and exchange - the 5% who own 95% of the wealth and spend the days and nights dreaming up new ways to shadft the rest of us.

 

[Azrael]

The ruling class are those who control/own the means of production, distribution and exchange - the 5% who own 95% of the wealth and spend the days and nights dreaming up new ways to shadft the rest of us.

Yes, yes, I know the Marxist definition, I just wondered what your cut-off point was. Do people who own micro-breweries (means of production) get more hatred than politicians who don't own any? What about rich philanthropists vs. selfish members of the local Rotary Club?

Peers who don't own any means of production, or have a seat in government?

And what about the children of the "ruling class"? Are they hated, or do they have to do something before they attract your opprobrium?

 

[LLETSA]

Agreed, but it's a crying shame to see such talent wasted on bigging up Mr Cameron's redundant clone of Labour. Mr Hague is using his political gifts to effect a change in management, not direction. It's sad to see a man with such paucity of ambition.

There's a reason why nobody is setting up a real conservative party. It's because the social base for one was finished off by the neo-liberal economic policies of successive Tory governments.

Your only option, I'm afraid, is the BNP. Hold your nose and get in there. Try to cultivate a dislike for the local Asian newsagent.

 

[Azrael]

Your only option, I'm afraid, is the BNP. Hold your nose and get in there. Try to cultivate a dislike for the local Asian newsagent.

*Yawn* Associations with that motley collection of nose-measurers and "ex" Holocaust deniers only come from people who value slander over debate.

Amusingly, you also seem to think I'm a fan of Baroness Thatcher and the Conservatives. I'll be charitable and assume you haven't read this thread before posting.

 

[Streathamite]

Yes, yes, I know the Marxist definition, I just wondered what your cut-off point was. Do people who own micro-breweries (means of production) get more hatred than politicians who don't own any? What about rich philanthropists vs. selfish members of the local Rotary Club?

Peers who don't own any means of production, or have a seat in government?

And what about the children of the "ruling class"? Are they hated, or do they have to do something before they attract your opprobrium?

In reverse order; defectors from the Elite (pace Orwell, benn, Shelley) are welcome, though I would personally argue the slippery little buggers should always be watched, closely, tricks and deviousness are hard-wired into them from birth.
They are still part of the Class which collectively owns and uses that wealth and power to the detriment of the rest of it, and also they fully benefit from that. push came to shove, we all know whose side they'll be on.
para 1. I'll agree that not all capitalists are the same, and that the CEO of Shell or BAe is in a radically different league of awfulness to the guy that owns my local offy. I have a slight personal blindside to the small business owner/self-employed type.
Plus, I've always thought very, very few people are all good or all bad.
so, ultimately, it is the system that needs to go, but that system is a class system as well as an economic system, and the hardcore of class enemies are the members of that class who knowingly and willingly defend that class and its' powers and privileges, and their place within it. I've no objection to converting the soft fringe of that class.
Politicians; ALL elected parliamentarians - with the possible exception of Sultan George of Iraq and the Campaign group, likewise any SSP types who manage to someday get a seat - are lackeys of the ruling class, willingly doing their governmental and legislative dirty work for them, just for a few crumbs from the corporate table.
Millionaire philanthropists; show me one of these and I'll show you a rich man/woman smart enough to realise the value in good PR and cynical enough to buy it through patronage.

 

[Azrael]

In reverse order; defectors from the Elite (pace Orwell, benn, Shelley) are welcome, though I would personally argue the slippery little buggers should always be watched, closely, tricks and deviousness are hard-wired into them from birth.

Replace "elite" with some other group and see how this view reads. (If it's serious.) It doesn't read well.

You might separate a "hard core" and the rest, but you're still making sweeping generalizations about individual people, and others who follow this line won't make those distinctions. The obvious dislike you feel for people due to an accident of birth shows what your opinion is predisposed to, whether you like it or not. You don't get to control these forces once you've conjured them up.

I've always found the notion of a "class", united in objective and type, bizarre. It depersonalises people in an arbitrary way. People of similar wealth might share similar objectives, but you're taking it much further than that.

 

[LLETSA]

*Yawn* Associations with that motley collection of nose-measurers and "ex" Holocaust deniers only come from people who value slander over debate.

Amusingly, you also seem to think I'm a fan of Baroness Thatcher and the Conservatives. I'll be charitable and assume you haven't read this thread before posting.

I don't think you're a fan. I pointed out that the fact that Thatcher destroyed the social base for 'real' conservatism is why you're not going to get the 'real conservative' party you seem to crave.