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JHE

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Then he can get all unpopular, fuck it up and lose a later referendum. Hopefully, anyway. It's like Catalonia, a politician with any sense of strategy would have called a referendum while there was a clear majority of Catalans in favour of staying in Spain a few years back. I'm happy for Catalans whatever they want to do, but if your agenda is to keep Spain "united" in its current form, you've missed the boat. The window of opportunity was there for anyone with vision.
Yes. I think it's also worth mentioning the reason anti-catalanistas won't accept a referendum. For them, it's a matter of principle. It would be an acceptance that the Catalans (and Basques and Galicians and Canarians.... etc) have the right to decide.

(There is a weird doctrine pushed by surprisingly many people, from learned professors of law to ordinary folk propping up the bar, that the referendum in 1978 decided the constitution and there's now no legitimate way for any part of the Kingdom to opt out.)
 

Favelado

Half to the Tower, please.
Yes. I think it's also worth mentioning the reason anti-catalanistas won't accept a referendum. For them, it's a matter of principle. It would be an acceptance that the Catalans (and Basques and Galicians and Canarians.... etc) have the right to decide.

(There is a weird doctrine pushed by surprisingly many people, from learned professors of law to ordinary folk propping up the bar, that the referendum in 1978 decided the constitution and there's now no legitimate way for any part of the Kingdom to opt out.)
It's a state of denial. All around them reality carries as on as the anti-catalanista mantra is repeated. Presumably, they'll still be chanting it the day after the senyara makes an appearance on top of the UN Headquarters in New York.
 

Favelado

Half to the Tower, please.
Yep, pretty fucking dangerous too. Look out Vitorria, the democratic cops are coming to crack your skulls...

Hello there. Thanks for the link you posted earlier in the week. It was very interesting and has made me want to read about the transition in much more detail. It is likely that I will now do so. Obviously, living in a country doesn't mean you know everything, or necessarily that much at all, about its history. My knowledge of the transition is pretty much what the standard line that's out there, with a couple of caveats here and there, especially relating to Juan Carlos's supposed saintliness on 23-F.

I do know someone who is both better informed and significantly more interesting than me on the subject. I have been his English teacher on and off for 7 years now, for so long that we are in fact firm friends. He was a young man during the transition, heavily involved in the Liga Comunista. Almost every moment of his time outside of work was dedicated to politics. At one point in his young life he served a short period of time in prison for his trouble. He ended up being elected to the Liga Comunista's executive committee during the transition, and says for some time that he was actually the movement's ideologue. I asked him about his feelings on the transition with retrospect and if he had any recollections of the Vitoria uprising. I thought I would add what he said to the thread, just to add a little colour to it. A second-hand account of an informal conversation I had is in no way intended to be a refutal of your take on events there, nor even the start of a debate on the matter. It's a pity he doesn't post here instead of me really; I have tried to get him to join but he's too busy.

Anyway, after briefly pausing to pull his memories together, he says he remembers attending Liga Comunista meetings when they were thinking how to formulate a response to Vitoria. He feels that while the predominantly right-wing transitional government would certainly have not welcomed the strikes in Vitoria and other cities, they were so fundamentally weak that didn't order the specific act of "skull-cracking" themselves. There is little doubting Fraga's credentials as well, Fraga, but my friend feels the branch of the police who carried out the killings probably commited them of their own volition. He says that he can't be 100% sure of that, but that it was more likely the Policía Armada were acting as a law unto themselves, in accordance with their anti-transition, Francoist DNA. He emphasised the weakness of the government more than once and thought the idea that Carillo and Fraga et al coordinating such an event as seriously lacking in plausibility.

With regards to the transition itself, he wanted the "clean break" spoken of in this thread. However, he rejects the idea that there was a genuine anarchist alternative at the time, saying that support for anarchism was extremely weak in the country and that he was hard pressed to think of prominent anarchists during the transition. Most of the strikers were primarily concerned with working conditions above anything else. The potential for bloodshed at the time was so great and a large majority of people at the time were desperate to avoid it. Any significant revolutionary movement would certainly have met a strong military response in the form of tanks on the streets with fachas against rojos all over again. We're not talking the 1982 type of response either, the army was obviously much more united and capable.

Butchers. I can see many imperfections in the post. Sorry you've got some kind of random, second-hand patchy response there. If it all just seems risible to you, then fair-enough, ignore it. However, if you or anyone else wants to fill in the considerable gaps to the above, feel free to ask and I will try and find out answers. My friend did live at the heart of this; his drift to social democracy over the years may either be plain predictable or disappointing to U75 posters, but he's a good point of reference. This would basically plan my next classes for me, so any questions would be most welcome. Even sarky ones.
 
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Favelado

Half to the Tower, please.
Some interesting polling here which forecasts that Podemos could become the third electoral force in Spanish politics at next year's general election. From zero to 58 seats and 15% of the vote, and the party has only existed for 3 months!

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/noticias/politica/podemos-sondeo-gesop-escanos-congreso-3294073

We'll have to see if PSOE are so wounded now that Susana Díaz (presumably) makes absolutely no difference at all to their poll ratings. She can't be worse than Rubalcaba but my guess is that she's going to be worth a puny 1.5% difference. The Guardian will no doubt be preparing a "style guide" on her already. In fact when that happens, can I have a round of applause?

"Spain's Sassy New Socialist Leader Shows Frumpy Brits The Way"

That's my prediction for the headline.
 

JHE

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If El País is to be believed, just two weeks after their striking electoral debut, Podemos is wracked with debate about its internal democracy and accusations of an attempted takeover by the Trotlets of Izquierda Anticapitalista.
 

Favelado

Half to the Tower, please.
If El País is to be believed, just two weeks after their striking electoral debut, Podemos is wracked with debate about its internal democracy and accusations of an attempted takeover by the Trotlets of Izquierda Anticapitalista.
El Pais has stunk throughout the abdication. PSOE puppetry as far as I can tell.
 

Favelado

Half to the Tower, please.
If El País is to be believed, just two weeks after their striking electoral debut, Podemos is wracked with debate about its internal democracy and accusations of an attempted takeover by the Trotlets of Izquierda Anticapitalista.
Publico are going with it too. This will be well worth following this week. Podemos have admitted a meeting took place but say it's a positive thing that they're doing everything in the open.

.http://www.publico.es/politica/526001/podemos-admite-discrepancias-sobre-la-eleccion-del-equipo-que-organizara-su-gran-asamblea
 

Favelado

Half to the Tower, please.
We'll have to see if PSOE are so wounded now that Susana Díaz (presumably) makes absolutely no difference at all to their poll ratings. She can't be worse than Rubalcaba but my guess is that she's going to be worth a puny 1.5% difference. The Guardian will no doubt be preparing a "style guide" on her already. In fact when that happens, can I have a round of applause?

"Spain's Sassy New Socialist Leader Shows Frumpy Brits The Way"

That's my prediction for the headline.
She's pulled out. A big surprise. The job no-one wants then? Will Carmé Chacón step in or is she too tainted by her Zapatero past? Eduardo Medina? None of the candidates are going to dare to call for a referendum.
 

butchersapron

blood on the walls
Hello there. Thanks for the link you posted earlier in the week. It was very interesting and has made me want to read about the transition in much more detail. It is likely that I will now do so. Obviously, living in a country doesn't mean you know everything, or necessarily that much at all, about its history. My knowledge of the transition is pretty much what the standard line that's out there, with a couple of caveats here and there, especially relating to Juan Carlos's supposed saintliness on 23-F. <snip>
Cheers for that Favelado - will get back on it asap - i'm currently having to post from a crap phone due to bt shitness so can't do proper long involved replies right now. I'm sure the issue/debate isn't going anywhere fast though (in real life i mean).
 

Lo Siento.

Second As Farce
Bp1wrKqIQAA7Xwv.jpg

Abdication debate in parliament today. Lots of grandstanding from the Far Left deputies (the IU held up pieces of paper with hashtags on :rolleyes: ). This guy, a representative for Amaiur, who's spent most of his career in various Far Left Basque nationalist groups (though never in ETA or Batasuna), gave an epic rant about how monarchy was Francoism, which he concluded by pulling out a Basque flag and yelling (in Spanish) we will not participate in this farce! (in Basque) Long live the free Basque nation! Long live the Basque Republic". To shouts of "shameless!" and "Get out!" from Spanish nationalist deputies.

Eta: the next PP deputy then accused him of having attempted to murder the old king
 
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Favelado

Half to the Tower, please.
butchersapron I greatly enjoyed the documentary. Apart from details of events in Vitoria themselves, the thing I found most interesting was the seperation between the lower clergy and higher echelons of the church. I don't know if that was specific to the Basque Country or was true across Spain, but breaks the church-equalled-fachas-always idea I previously had.

Feel relatively friendly towards the Conservatives when I have a think about what the PP really is sometimes.
 

J Ed

Follow Back Pro Expropriation
There will be zero tolerance this week during the coronation of Prince Felipe VI. A lot of it seems like security theatre, including the closure of airspace above Madrid. Those applying for protest permits have been denied them and threatened, and this is all despite the fact that the Ministry of the Interior admits that there is no actual threat of a terrorist attack.
 

Favelado

Half to the Tower, please.
Felipe is king. Spain is really varied, enough so for everyone to fit inside it happily he says. Glad that's fixed then.
 

Favelado

Half to the Tower, please.
Madrid tomado por la policía (en la foto la Puerta del Sol). No se puede circular porque no está permitido, no se puede coger el Metro porque está cerrado, no se pueden cruzar las calles porque están cortadas, no nos podemos manifestar ni portar banderas republicanas porque está prohibido y no podemos votar en un REFERÉNDUM porque NO HAY DEMOCRACIA.

"Madrid taken over by the police (Puerta del Sol in the photo). People can't move around freely, because it's not allowed. You can't take the metro because it's shut, you can't cross the streets because they're closed off, we can't demonstrate or even carry republican flags because it's forbidden and we can't vote in a referendum because WE DON'T HAVE DEMOCRACY."

From Izquierda Unida Facebook.

solcortada.jpg
 

Favelado

Half to the Tower, please.
I'm actually teaching my old boss on Skype now. He's in an office in Gran Vía, pictured in your photo, I can hear the pro-monarchy chants from the street and we both feel sick.

e2a a look out the window suggest only 2000 people are there though. Piss poor for a coronation!
 

J Ed

Follow Back Pro Expropriation
I'm actually teaching my old boss on Skype now. He's in an office in Gran Vía, pictured in your photo, I can hear the pro-monarchy chants from the street and we both feel sick.

e2a a look out the window suggest only 2000 people are there though. Piss poor for a coronation!
This should make you feel better :)


The turn out is amazingly low, the pictures are astounding for that reason alone.
 
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