Treacle Toes
Time
Please explain. Why was it racist?
No one is hijacking anything. We are discussing something that we have an opinion on, our comments were invited by the OP. You don't have an opinion, fine. Not our problem!
Spain's eye-catching faux pas
- Thread starter santa klaus
- Start date
santa klaus
occasional saint
For the same reason I found that silly ad awkward. It is awkward. But then, I found the reaction of the Guardian awkward, too. That´s why I started this thread.
Don´t worry. She won´t be a racist. She has a Greek first name (for no particular reason, we just happened to like "Zoe"). Most of our friends have "mixed" children (awkward term...) - these are the ones she plays with. She attends a downtown kindergarten with children from every thinkable ethnic background. Everyone around her is well aware of racism. They would stop her from doing slit-eyes gestures in kindergarten and certainly not teach her to do them in the first place.
That´s why I said I´m sure she came up with that gesture herself. Since she is too young to be a racist, there must be cases when that gesture is just totally innocent. That is why I said maybe that gesture is not (yet) considered offensive in Spain. [Again, if your poll is somewhat representative for all Spaniards that assumtion was obviously wrong.]
That is of course right. We all originate from a very small population of early humans in East Africa. More than half of the planet´s population speak an Indo-European language. We have more in common than most of us think. But then, we can´t stop to use (OK, simplified) terms like "black", "white" or "indigenous American" - knowing full well they don´t describe the whole truth. Simply because things like that matter (unfortunately).
JHE
.
Likewise with the whole it's only joke if they find it offensive it's them with the problem. Most spaniards were infuriated with the following. Which makes me wonder who good they are at taking jokes.
That is quite funny, in a way. I sort of like it, too, because it confirms what I've long thought about Catalan nationalism: that a lot of it is people in economically devoloped Catalonia hating the the idea that their taxes should help people in poorer parts of Spain. It's flag-waving by meanies!
Congratulations to the clever Catalan propagandist for being so honest.
Treacle Toes
Time
Thanks for responding.
I think it's natural that she notices difference. Just be aware of any associations she might pick up and don't be complacent about her growing out of it. Kids are sponges, for good and for bad.
Please explain the awkwardness though. Sorry to push you but I think it's important.
santa klaus
occasional saint
Yes, I think that was the whole Olympic Idea back in the ancient times.
True. Spain is now trying to get over with the civil war. It was taboo before, now it´s debated everywhere. Apparently that takes some time to even start. The Nazis were taboo in Germany until the sixties/seventies. In Austria even until the Waldheim debate.
When that´s done they´ll sort out their colonial past.
Treacle Toes
Time
santa klaus
occasional saint
It is amazing how much we can actually learn from children. We can learn how our brains work.
I found it awkward because it was the first time she obviously thought about something like that.
[Not exactly - when we were in Spain two years ago it scared the shit out of her that people speak a different language there. When we travel, we (have to) use the local playgrounds. It´s a great way to get in touch with the locals. I didn´t talk to half as many locals when I was still a backpacker, and no other backpacker I met anywhere did. Pah, backpackers!
]Anyway, many of the kids she plays with have an African parent. They look very obviously different from her (pale white, blond hair, blue eyes). Yet, she does not even seem to notice or think about it. Never asked a question, never talks about it (and she talks A LOT). Somewhat made her notice the difference between her own and Asian eyelids though. A difference much less obvious - that is what I found awkward.
santa klaus
occasional saint
JHE
.
Should I expect some gratitude from the Catalan? I´m a German/Austrian taxpayer who has paid for the extravagant mass transit system in Barcelona!
Spain as a whole, including Catalonia, has done rather well out of EU money for infrastructure, so maybe the answer is yes. However, I don't know how much Germany and Austria provide, so I'm not sure. Allegedly, Britain has always be a large net contributor.
santa klaus
occasional saint
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
I can't imagine anyone from china not finding that offensive. It is also dreadfully disrespectful. How can you read it any other way? Please give me an example of what they might have possibly meant that would not be considered offensive?
Just one example of what they might be intending to say to the chinese people.
santa klaus
occasional saint
It is an ad, for chrissake. We shouldn´t try to find a message in it. There is almost never any message in an ad. There is never a negative message in an ad.
The ad does not address any chinese people. It was published in a Spanish paper. Obviously, they never thought anyone in China would ever see this ad. They were ignorant about that. An online poll among 50000 Spaniards tells us 83% of them find it racist. So the makers of that ad (assuming they did not intend to deliver a racist message, which would be very strange indeed) were ignorant about that, too. They just made a very, very stupid mistake. They made an offensive ad without even knowing it. I´m sure they were already fired.
I think we can all agree about that much after 100+ posts now. I am very pleased we had a reasonable and polite debate about racism here. That´s pretty unusual, as far as message boards go! It confirms to me that this is a pretty civilized board here. I´m glad I found it.
Can we talk nonsense now?
[/B]
They fired a gun at an African fella who couldn't swim and forced him into the deep end of a pool, the size of which he had never even seen before... Everyone clapped and cheered and gave him money.[/quote]
Interesting enough to make me look it up but, as it turns out, a bizarre interpretation:
santa klaus
occasional saint
The truth is almost more bizarre than the "bizarre interpretation"!
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
Well I might contest that there is never a negative message in an ad.
Anyway what I meant was, what do you think the gesture might say, even if not directly to the chinese people ?
"this is what the chinese look like"
"hey look I'm chinese"
"the chinese have slitty eyes"
"hey spain, we are off to china and they all look like this"
Now if they had all stuck one leg out I don't think we could read any meaning into what they did but they are clearly making some sort of reference to chinese people in a fucking ad for Christ's sake! What can you read into it that isn't offensive? What is it about that gesture is as nondescript as raising your right arm?
dilute micro
esse quam videri
Anybody posted this yet?
Treacle Toes
Time
They fired a gun at him?
They knew he couldn't swim?
They knew he had never seen such a big pool?
It was because he is was African?
Just asking to be clear of what you are saying.
Treacle Toes
Time
So it turns out Mal isn't correct at all?
Treacle Toes
Time
Klaus, from this discussion I get the feeling you are a smart guy.
Why then do you continue to post the above?
Never a negative message in an ad are you quite sure?
Treacle Toes
Time
*yawn* Have some imagination!
Thanks again Mal your contribution has been memorable!
I won't try to insult you by faking a yawn at you either as that would be immature and rude of me.
I just wanted to ask though...did you think it racist when Eddy the Eagle Edwards got so much coverage for being so bad (albeit motivated and courageous) ski jumping?
santa klaus
occasional saint
Never a negative message in an ad are you quite sure?
Except for
- political ads making the opponent look bad
- unintended negative messages (like in the case we debate here)
Commercial ads making your competitor´s product look worse than yours are banned here. I know they aren´t banned everywhere but from what I gather that practice is not very commonly used (and if it is, then usually in a humoristic way). When you advertise your product, you want to get the people in a happy mood so you draw a perfect world which is even more perfect and happy if they decide to buy your stuff. You certainly don´t want to disturb anyone with negative messages or even offend people - so I can´t imagine offending the Chinese was intended there. They simply didn´t think that they could be offended by that.
What´s so wrong about that?
Treacle Toes
Time
Who are 'they'? The Spanish or the Chinese
If it's the Spanish you are talking about, I don't think they cared enough to think. How many people in that photo....didn't at least one of them think, hang on lads, maybe this isn't cool? Let's see if they did, were they shouted down, were they ridiculed for being too culturally sensitive?
IME adverts have a history of reinforcing negative stereotypes and offending people. Whether the offense was intended in the way it is taken is completely another matter. For me it depends from which perspective you view it and whether or not you are savvy or care enough to appreciate that.
Maybe amongst conservative Spaniards, but in general it's OK.
Treacle Toes
Time
What?santa klaus said:
In Spain I've seen a popular adult comic with a cartoon of the prince's wife snorting speed on it.
I can't remember the last time a publication in the UK ridiculed our royal family in that way.
santa klaus
occasional saint
Err, sorry for the confusion.
The Spanish makers of that ad simply didn´t think that the Chinese could be offended by that.
IME = in my experience?
Funny how we perceive ads so differently... All I see is perfect plastic world, soft-focus and melodies trying to lull you...
The Spanish makers of that ad simply didn´t think that the Chinese could be offended by that.
IME = in my experience?
Funny how we perceive ads so differently...
All I see is perfect plastic world, soft-focus and melodies trying to lull you...
Treacle Toes
Time
yes, sorry for abbreviations.
Funny how we perceive ads so differently...
Again this maybe a question of perspective. Although don't get me wrong we have the soft focus, hypnotic kind too, obviously.
It may even be a question of background/history. Perhaps class/social status, even education. There are many reasons why we could read things differently.
Although Klaus, you yourself admitted that the ad made you feel awkward, that to me says you didn't read it as perfect and plastic. On some level you knew it wasn't right, regardless of the intention.
alsoknownas
some bloke
That advert is a disgrace. Spain as a nation seems to have a lot to learn about racism.
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
The satirical mag El Jueves was earlier this year seized by the police and two of its editors charged with defaming the Royal Family because of this front pageWhat?
In Spain I've seen a popular adult comic with a cartoon of the prince's wife snorting speed on it.
I can't remember the last time a publication in the UK ridiculed our royal family in that way.
(To paraphrase, the Prince is suggesting if he gets his wife pregnant it'd be the closest to a day's work he's done in his life. He's referring to the €2,500 offered by the government for every newborn).
The magazine was off the stands for a couple of weeks and at the end the editors were fined. But they could have been jailed in theory, though in practice that was very unlikely to happen.
