Spain's eye-catching faux pas

[cathal marcs]

I
They are not though very culturally aware and it is not only the North Africans that suffer racism in Spain.


I googled this to see what response have been made elsewhere...here are some of the results.

http://www.forocoches.com/foro/showthread.php?t=1003154

I especially like this comment.

Jesus some of the views on that forum are ridiculous. It's like everyone knows it was meant as a joke but they just don't seem to get the point it is offensive and the standard reply is if they don't like it fuck them. Or mixed with 'fucking english'

 

[Treacle Toes]

Jesus some of the views on that forum are ridiculous. It's like everyone knows it was meant as a joke but they just don't seem to get the point it is offensive and the standard reply is if they don't like it fuck them. Or mixed with 'fucking english'

Exactly....hardly a thought provoking and convincing response is it?
Unfortunately I have experienced this response from many Spaniards too towards things like this.

It's a narrow minded and self centred response and does them no favours.

 

[Rollem]

i vote we shoot them

<looks for poll>

 

[santa klaus]

People were laughing at him though rather than with him. It was a send up of a bigot. He was the object of ridicule.

Yes. In this episode, he did not ridicule the Germans but the Brit´s obsession with Nazis/Germans/the war.
Anyway: the Germans were ridiculed often enough, too. It would be a pity if the next generation of Monty Pythons weren´t allowed to do that.

Mmmmmm I see what you mean but there has to be common ground and trust of course for it to work.

Exactly! I trust John Cleese is not a racist jerk - that´s why I don´t take offense when he makes respectless jokes about Germans.

The so called 'negros' in Brazil have long been amongst the most socially deprived and powerless groups. See a pattern?
It's about emergence of rights, representation and political voice. It's about being respected, listened to and treated equally.

Debatable. Imagine a perfect world where Brazil´s blacks would not be deprived and powerless. They are respected, listened to and treated equally.

Just like the green-eyed Brazilians nowadays. In such a perfect world, why would they take offense when being called "negro"?

Al Jolson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jolson
Britain's own embarrassment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show

Aha....

Well... I would say if a comedian blacks up for no particular reason it would strike me as ... pretty weird?

Anyway, a lot of Monty Python humor is based on racial stereotyping. I think the context matters, not stereotyping per se.

I suppose their parents are thinking this is tradition. They are thinking this is an important part of their history/Spain's history.

I suppose their parents hardly make use of their brain. What is that teaching their children? If my kids would participate in a spectacle like that (replace Moors with Jews!) I´d freak out.

 

[santa klaus]

Surely you can see that mocking someone's appearance might be seen as offensive.

Yes of course! If mocking someone´s appearance was intended, it is offensive.

What I am trying to debate here is: what if no mocking was intended?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Debatable. Imagine a perfect world where Brazil´s blacks would not be deprived and powerless. They are respected, listened to and treated equally.

Just like the green-eyed Brazilians nowadays. In such a perfect world, why would they take offense when being called "negro"?

I suppose they would prefer to just be called Brazilian.

Also, let's not forget the alignment/representation of negro/black as scary, bad, dirty, savage, dangerous etc in lots of languages/cultures.

Most importantly, being objectified and characterised by the colour of your skin is tedious, perhaps they are simply bored of it.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Yes of course! If mocking someone´s appearance was intended, it is offensive.

What I am trying to debate here is: what if no mocking was intended?

Come on Klaus, what do you think they were saying

'Hey, look at us we look like you!'

or...

'Look here, this is what you look like!'

or.......

'We wish our eyes were like yours!'

or....

'We're coming to get you slanty eyes!'

or what?

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Yes of course! If mocking someone´s appearance was intended, it is offensive.

What I am trying to debate here is: what if no mocking was intended?

And what I said before was that if no mocking was intended it was/is still offensive.

I can call someone a cunt but say I didn't mean to offend I wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on. Cunt is an offensive word. Doing the slitty eye thing is offensive
I bet Mickey Rooney though he was pretty funny being a Chinese man in Breakfast at Tiffany's with all the "me slow solly" etc, but did Bruce Lee find it funny in Dragon? No sir.

 

[santa klaus]

I suppose they would prefer to just be called Brazilian.

Also, let's not forget the alignment/representation of negro/black as scary, bad, dirty, savage, dangerous etc in lots of languages/cultures.

Most importantly, being objectified and characterised by the colour of your skin is tedious, perhaps they are simply bored of it.

Good points.

Another example, this time from the real world. In Germany, there is an equal number of protestants and roman catholics. Unlike in Northern Ireland, this causes no trouble of any sort. At least not since the end of the 30-year war in 1648.

Some regions are entirely catholic, others entirely protestant, some are mixed. The protestants and catholics do not only have different religious affiliations - there are some differences of cultural background, too (although I doubt that many Germans are aware of that). Predominantly protestant regions seem to be more liberal, for example.
I refuse to erase the terms "protestant" and "catholic" from my vocabulary. Why should I do that?

Come on Klaus, what do you think they were saying

'Hey, look at us we look like you!'

or...

'Look here, this is what you look like!'

or.......

'We wish our eyes were like yours!'

or....

'We're coming to get you slanty eyes!'

or what?

I think this is an ad.

I refuse to believe anyone making a picture for an ad would try to deliver a negative message of any sort.
My naive theory was that this gesture is considered harmless in Spain. Your poll demonstrates more than 80% of the Spaniards don´t think so. So I think the person who made this ad belongs to the other 20% and had his brain switched off.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I think this is an ad.

I refuse to believe anyone making a picture for an ad would try to deliver a negative message of any sort.
My naive theory was that this gesture is considered harmless in Spain. Your poll demonstrates more than 80% of the Spaniards don´t think so. So I think the person who made this ad belongs to the other 20% and had his brain switched off.

Okay so what was the message of the ad?
'We're going to the Olympics in China. They have eyes like this'.

It's an harmless gesture when you don't cause offense. That's all Spain needs to grow up and realise.

Did you read some of the comments in Spanish on the other forum I posted? They were quite telling of how some Spaniards deal with issues like this.

 

[santa klaus]

Okay so what was the message of the ad?

Um, I think it was something like "look, we are a cool courier company because we support our team. Use our services instead of our competitors´".

No other message intended. They tried to be funny, which backfired. I am sure they guy who made this ad is already looking for a new job.

It's an harmless gesture when you don't cause offense. That's all Spain needs to grow up and realise.

Agreed.

Did you read some of the comments in Spanish on the other forum I posted? They were quite telling of how some Spaniards deal with issues like this.

It is quite telling how people react when some newspaper from London tells them what they are not supposed to do.

It was the same here in Austria when the whole world told them they are probably still Nazis when they elected Waldheim. Or when they elected Jörg Haiders so-called "freedom party" into government in 1999. The first reaction in both cases was "We are treated in the most unfair way. They wouldn´t dare to do this if Austria was a big country like Germany. Anyone who admits they have a good point is un-patriotic". I was put in the enemies-of-Austria-drawer, too. The opposition leader dared to drink a glass of champagne with Jaques Chirac. It was almost the end of his career.

Wait until the dust has settled. There won´t be an ad like that again in Spain.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Um, I think it was something like "look, we are a cool courier company because we support our team. Use our services instead of our competitors´".

No other message intended. They tried to be funny, which backfired. I am sure they guy who made this ad is already looking for a new job.

Yes but no one seems to have thought, no I don't think we should do this....where was the awareness of the team when they were making it....what is funny about having slanty eyes on any level? That's my point. The ad is representative of the ignorance that exists in Spain and that ignorance is offensive. I just don't think they deserve the excuse no other message intended.

Wait until the dust has settled. There won´t be an ad like that again in Spain.

That is good news, on so many levels.

 

[cathal marcs]

Exactly....hardly a thought provoking and convincing response is it?
Unfortunately I have experienced this response from many Spaniards too towards things like this.

It's a narrow minded and self centred response and does them no favours.

i know what you mean no one is saying they are racists but it's the response of if they don't like it fuck them that pisses me off and the strong whiff of xenphobia of guirris giving them the moral highground or the fact that 'Spain is different' as a justification do do what they want without taking into account how it is going to affect others.

 

[santa klaus]

And what I said before was that if no mocking was intended it was/is still offensive.

It is offensive if *genuine* offense is taken.
[not the sort of "offense" like "I never liked the Spaniards - I will make them bleed for that one"]

I can call someone a cunt but say I didn't mean to offend I wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on. Cunt is an offensive word. Doing the slitty eye thing is offensive

I work in a hostel. I had a workmate (from Spain! ) who frequently called guests "you motherfuckers" when they checked in. She was a crazy character in a very positive way. It was always obvious she did not mean to be offensive. Nobody ever took offense. The context matters, not the mere use of an offensive word.

 

[Treacle Toes]

i know what you mean no one is saying they are racists but it's the response of if they don't like it fuck them that pisses me off and the strong whiff of xenphobia of guirris giving them the moral highground or the fact that 'Spain is different' as a justification do do what they want without taking into account how it is going to affect others.

Guirris....great use of the word there.

Spain is a very proud country and lots of nationalism exists, which is fine if it's handled and channeled positively. Doesn't make them right with the fingers-in-the-ears-I'm-not-listening approach though. I think that irks me the most about this. The simple lack of thinking, awareness and then immature response is pathetic in this day and age.

 

[santa klaus]

where was the awareness of the team when they were making it

We know that football players are stupid by definition. Exceptions are very, very rare*. Why should basketball players be different?


* Jürgen Klinsmann is the only one I can think of right now.

 

[Treacle Toes]

We know that football players are stupid by definition. Exceptions are very, very rare*. Why should basketball players be different?

That's a whole other thread I think.

 

[Jessiedog]

OK, convinced. If 82% of 50,000 Spaniards think it´s racist... it is.

I was wrong. Thanks to all for a polite debate.

Yes, you were wrong.

It is racist.


But you should have left it there.....

Yes of course! If mocking someone´s appearance was intended, it is offensive.

What I am trying to debate here is: what if no mocking was intended?

It's beyond me to imagine how the fuck any reasonably well educated person, living in the western world, could fail to understand that the whole concept and background from which the notion of the "slitty-eyed chink" arose is, in today's world, one that is equally offensive and racist as calling a black person a "dirty nigger".


The idea that these Spanish people were actually unaware that it is both mocking and offensive - not to mention racist - is bewildering to me. I think it's far more likely that they are fully aware of its offensiveness, but they simply don't think racism is something important to worry about.

Racist cunts!

And as to the idea that this would work as an advert.......

Thead is representative of the ignorance that exists in Spain and that ignorance is offensive.

Prezactly!





Woof

 

[santa klaus]

Yes, you were wrong.
the whole concept and background from which the notion of the "slitty-eyed chink" arose

What is the background? Excuse me, I am that naive. My 4-year-old daughter made exactly the same gesture a few weeks ago. I found it awkward, but I think she came up with it on herself. I´m pretty sure nobody else taught her to make that gesture. Do you think she has already a racist "concept and background"? Should I be worried?

one that is equally offensive and racist as calling a black person a "dirty nigger".

No, there is a difference. There is a difference between calling a black person "dirty nigger" and calling a black person "black".

I can imagine the black person being bored being called black, but the black person is still black.

And as to the idea that this would work as an advert.......

Well, it didn´t. Obviously.

 

[cathal marcs]

Guirris....great use of the word there.

Spain is a very proud country and lots of nationalism exists, which is fine if it's handled and channeled positively. Doesn't make them right with the fingers-in-the-ears-I'm-not-listening approach though. I think that irks me the most about this. The simple lack of thinking, awareness and then immature response is pathetic in this day and age.

Likewise with the whole it's only joke if they find it offensive it's them with the problem. Most spaniards were infuriated with the following. Which makes me wonder who good they are at taking jokes.

 

[Treacle Toes]

What is the background? Excuse me, I am that naive. My 4-year-old daughter made exactly the same gesture a few weeks ago. I found it awkward, but I think she came up with it on herself. I´m pretty sure nobody else taught her to make that gesture. Do you think she has already a racist "concept and background"? Should I be worried?

I wouldn't worry where she got it from, I'd be thinking about how you deal with it now. She is a child, you have a duty of care and are responsible to deal with it. Why do you think it made you feel awkward?

No, there is a difference. There is a difference between calling a black person "dirty nigger" and calling a black person "black".

I can imagine the black person being bored being called black, but the black person is still black.

I'm sorry but I think you'll find the overwhelming majority of us are every shade of brown. We are called black. We now refer to ourselves as black.

It comes from a long history of being referred to/objectified by the colour of our skin. Look at an altas, Blackland does not exist.

There's a big clue there if you have missed it. The term 'black' used in this way as an adjective, groups a whole lot of different people with different cultures, histories, religions and value systems together into one mass. It's a way of undermining and misrepresenting our different identities. It misrepresents us.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Likewise with the whole it's only joke if they find it offensive it's them with the problem. Most spaniards were infuriated with the following. Which makes me wonder who good they are at taking jokes.

Precisely!

 

[Homeless Mal]

Jeez is this still going?? Move on kids, it's 'lympics time

 

[goldenecitrone]

The Spanish are a bit slow on stuff like this. They had a stuffed African tribesman in a museum until they hosted the World Cup and many African nations protested.

 

[Treacle Toes]

It's beyond me to imagine how the fuck any reasonably well educated person, living in the western world, could fail to understand that the whole concept and background from which the notion of the "slitty-eyed chink" arose is, in today's world, one that is equally offensive and racist as calling a black person a "dirty nigger".

I'd say the same as calling someone a nigger.

I think it's far more likely that they are fully aware of its offensiveness, but they simply don't think racism is something important to worry about.

I think that's it to some extent. It isn't their problem in their eyes. It's the problem of the person who takes offense.

Spain is young. Franco is not so long gone. Society and culture will need time to recover and catch up not just financially but with their world view as well.

Spain is only now dealing with it's colonial past and not very well either. It's early days. The stuff I've heard said in Spain about South Americans, North Africans and Asian people has lead me into no end of conversations about it.

Mind you they are not great about those who differ within their own Peninsula so it's hardly surprising TBH.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Jeez is this still going?? Move on kids, it's 'lympics time

Yes cheers for that Mal, thanks for your input.

 

[Homeless Mal]

Boring!!! It's the Olympics for heavens sake. Can't everyone get off this 'racist racist' cry. It's 2 weeks every 4 years. Enjoy it while it's here. You can get back to why everythings racist in 2 weeks.

 

[Madusa]

well, you dont have to post on this thread, Homeless mal. No one's stopping you from getting back to your idiot box!

 

[Treacle Toes]

Boring!!! It's the Olympics for heavens sake.

I know, i'm watching it, as I always do. I enjoy it.

]Can't everyone get off this 'racist racist' cry. It's 2 weeks every 4 years. Enjoy it while it's here. You can get back to why everythings racist in 2 weeks.

Oh so we should stop having an opinion whilst the games are on?

Well Mal, I'm glad your life and experience allows you to switch these things off at will but some of us live in the real world.

 

[Homeless Mal]

Well Mal, I'm glad your life and experience allows you to switch these things off at will but some of us live in the real world.

I remember everyone cheering Eric Moussambani as he struggled to swin in Sydney. All part of the Olympic Spirit. Arguably one of the most racist spectacles of the modern day. Still we clapped and cheered and he became an overnight sensation. All comes down to interpretation really. Make sense? Probably not. Its just the same people banging on about racism and trying to hijack an Olympic thread is poor form.

As for the real world comment ...