I think anyone who gets really worked up and upset over this takes things way too seriously. It's banter tis all.
'an eye for an eye'?
Spain's eye-catching faux pas
- Thread starter santa klaus
- Start date
'an eye for an eye'?
TrippyLondoner
Well-Known Member
I think anyone who gets really worked up and upset over this takes things way too seriously. It's banter tis all.
Given spains history of racism recently, especially in football last season, i can't really see it as banter.
It's just a bit of fun. The Chinese are generally good sports about all this. Relax. 
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
Ah no, of course, Vienna has no history of racism.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
It's just a bit of fun. The Chinese are generally good sports about all this. Relax.
Are you taking the piss? 'good sports' about it? come the fuck on
Dillinger4
Es gibt Zeit
It's just a bit of fun. The Chinese are generally good sports about all this. Relax.
Are you joking? I hope you are joking.
santa klaus
occasional saint
Of course it does. Vienna invented antisemitism. Vienna still votes 15% for right-wing nutcases.
Anyway, Vienna has no tradition about making slit-eyes as racist slur against Asians. At least I´m not aware of anything like that.
I appreciate it that (so far) nobody calls me racist or an idiot for asking what the fuss is all about. Apparently, everyone (except for one) seems to think what the spaniards did is highly inappropriate and offensive. I´m convinced, then. Stupid guys, they should have known better.
Or should they really have known better? You have to consider that there could be some difference in what is commonly perceived as offensive in Spain and in the UK. Take Madusa´s comment about Lapland! The inhabitants of Lapland (how are they called in English? Laps?) have absolutely no history of mocking the Chinese. How on earth should they be aware of making slitty eyes could be perceived offensive, even if no mocking is intended? [Isn´t Lapland the place where it is offensive not to burp after a meal?]
Is there a world-wide universal standard as to what is politically correct?
Or let´s say the Olympic Games are in Jamaika some day and the Spaniards appear wearing Bob-Marley-style Rastafari wigs. Not funny? Maybe. But offensive?
cathal marcs
Well-Known Member
Although it is pathetic I doubt your average Spaniard would see anything in it or have any intentioned malice. Ideas such as PC just don't exist in Spain like tey do in th UK. Im not justifying the action in anyway it's pathetic but I don't think there is any malice intended in it just complete ignorance to the extent of infintile naivety.
Stanley and I had a similar conversation about thise theme a few months back.
Stanley and I had a similar conversation about thise theme a few months back.
santa klaus
occasional saint
That´s my point. Spain does have its PC standard, it´s just very different from that in the UK. Some things are not PC in the UK while they are in Spain - and vice versa. In the UK, it is perfectly OK to make jokes about the royals - in Spain it isn´t.
In the UK, you can deny the holocaust. You can expect to be called a jerk if you do it, but in Germany you can´t - you´ll be sent to jail [note: I do NOT deny the holocaust and think jerks who do should be sent to jail].
Treacle Toes
Time
Treacle Toes
Time
WHat?
What planet do you live on?
Oh it's okay, they are only mocking everyone with slitty eyes. They're feelings don't count.
How much do you know about Spain exactly? How much experience/knowledge do you have of racism in Spain?
Treacle Toes
Time
Mocking royality...ie....one family or to be exact what they represent, is hardly the same. Stop scrapping an empty barrel of justification.
santa klaus
occasional saint
Where do you live exactly?
Vienna.
What planet do you live on?
Earth.
Why do you think this is "mocking"? Having slitty eyes is not a physical challenge. I am quite sure they did not intend any "mocking". Did any Asians take offense?
Enough I guess. I know there is racism in Spain, just like everywhere else. I have been in Spain long enough, know enough Spaniards and speak Spanish well enough to read a Spanish newspaper, which I often do. This story does not seem to appear in any Spanish newspapers. I know Spain´s standard of political correctness is different from yours (or Austria´s, for that matter).
There is a lot of racism against Africans in Spain, but I´m not aware that this is also the case with Asians. That´s why making a slitty-eye-gesture is considered harmless in Spain. As far as I am aware.
That was just an example to demonstrate there is no universal standard of political correctness. You can´t measure this incident by British standards of political correctness. You have to measure it with the Spanish and Chinese standards.
Treacle Toes
Time
It's a physical characteristic nonetheless. My blackness isn't a challenge either doesn't mean you can black up and imitate me without causing offence.
Well it would be seeing as though Asians are in the minority without any political voice.
You're not aware of it so therefore it doesn't exist? Are you quite sure?
I not measuring them with any standards of political correctness...afterall having some respect is what it's all about.
The term political correctness is a relatively new term. So you writing off people's objection to this very poor taste joke as political correctness is scrapping the barrel.
The Spanish are known for taking the piss, I know that. I speak Spanish, have 80% Spanish friends, have travelled/stayed enough in all parts of the Penninsula to know this.
They are not though very culturally aware and it is not only the North Africans that suffer racism in Spain.
I googled this to see what response have been made elsewhere...here are some of the results.
http://www.forocoches.com/foro/showthread.php?t=1003154
I especially like this comment.
People who voted in this poll disagree with you also. Over 80% in fact.
http://www.tmz.com/2008/08/11/spanish-bball-team-takes-their-eyes-off-the-ball/
Couldn't read on this board without being a member, but may join just to have a look.
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=170016&st=160
Interesting response article here... Which basically says that the English are just jealous and that is the motive for the Guardian article.
Nothing like burying your head in the sand, is there?
http://www.saliraganar.com/2008/08/12-envidia-inglesa-en-baloncesto-nos-acusan-de-racismo
santa klaus
occasional saint
I can´t black up... at all? That does not make sense to me. I think you will have to consider why I do that before taking offense.
Yes I know that. Not only the Africans suffer from racism in Spain, but they seem to suffer most. The common resentments against gays in Spain is pretty disgusting, too - although their government has the most liberal stance of all governments in Europe regarding that matter - so you can´t even make blanket judgements about Spain. A majority has re-elected that government, knowing full well its stance on gay rights.
That silly ad would be called "entbehrlich" (=unnecessary) where I live. I think the article in saliraganar.com makes a good point: you could label most Monty Python jokes as "racist" by the Guardian´s measurement. I am German; Monty Python frequently took the piss out of Germans by showing us as Nazis - and only as Nazis. Instead of taking offense, I have a good laugh. Maybe that´s the difference: what these Spaniards did is just extremely non-funny - but that does not mean it´s racist.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Python did also portray you as humorless bastards as well as Nazis so I think he ticked all the stereotype boxes.
santa klaus
occasional saint
Re: your edit:
OK, convinced. If 82% of 50,000 Spaniards think it´s racist... it is.
I was wrong. Thanks to all for a polite debate.
OK, convinced. If 82% of 50,000 Spaniards think it´s racist... it is.
I was wrong. Thanks to all for a polite debate.
internetstalker
Get naked!
santa klaus
occasional saint
Well... I agree Germans are pretty humorless. Our jews had some humor... I guess the Nazis were just afraid of being ridiculed by them.
Treacle Toes
Time
I said black up and imitate me. Just like they are doing to the Chinese in that pic.
Curious though? why would you want to black up at all? I can't imagine whiting up.
I not generalising at all, I'm speaking from experience. Equally, a progressive liberal stance on gay rights in the elected government isn't proof of anything either. I don't suppose they were elected because of that.
Why is that do you think?
You'd be happy to call it 'offensive' though?
santa klaus
occasional saint
What if I black up, imitate you and I´m really, really funny, like Monty Python?
I not generalising at all, I'm speaking from experience. Equally, a progressive liberal stance on gay rights in the elected government isn't proof of anything either. I don't suppose they were elected because of that.
No, they weren´t elecected because of that but if Spain would be really that bad they wouldn´t have been elected because of that. Just look at the big fuss about gay marriage in America. Compared to that, Spain seems to be pretty relaxed about it. But you´re right, it does not proof very much.
Good question. Austrians don´t take political correctness very far. Not as far as Brits and Americans at least. How far is far enough?
If someone genuinely takes offense: yes.
Treacle Toes
Time
Ermmmm who told you that Monty python is funny?
Point being, the black and White Minstrels used to be socially acceptable but they aren't now. Why? Because 'other' folks thoughts, rights and feelings are now being taken into account, and rightly so.
I not saying Spain is bad at all. I'm saying that lots of racism exists there and many Spanish people are culturally unaware. The ad was very poor taste. If people are offended by that the Spanish need to listen, not bury their heads and say it was just a joke.
Again I don't see this as PC objection at all. It's about having some respect.
Can you give me an example of what is acceptable in Austria that wouldn't be here or in the USA?
santa klaus
occasional saint
Maybe because I´m a caroller, for example. Children dress up as the "three holy kings", those who brought christmas presents to little Jesus.
Legend has it that one of those kings was black.
Look at that (esp. the blacked-up boy in the middle):
http://burgenland.gruene.at/soziales/artikel/lesen/12615/
Austria´s Green Party does not find that to be offensive (and they are the ultimate autority on that here), otherwise they wouldn´t put that picture to their website.
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
What if they were going to an African country and all blacked up like al Johnson?
What are your thoughts on Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's?
Treacle Toes
Time
I know about that custom, have seen it in Holland.
But that is quite different to a custom still done in Spain where the kids black up and are chased by white ones with nooses, for example. It's a reinactment of the expulsion of the Moors. Other folk dress up in the white robes popularised/adopted by the ku klux klan. Is that still okay to do?
santa klaus
occasional saint
Ermmmm who told you that Monty python is funny?
I say that. But then, I´m German and my genes may have a humor deficiency. I think the episode of Fawlty Towers when they have guests from Germany and Basil tells his staff not to mention the war (and then talks about nothing else in front of the German couple) is absolutely hysterical.
Point being, the black and White Minstrels used to be socially acceptable but they aren't now. Why? Because 'other' folks thoughts, rights and feelings are now being taken into account, and rightly so.
Again I don't see this as PC objection at all. It's about having some respect.
Well, that´s debatable. Of course I´m all for having some respect. But then, being respectless can be a very important ingredient of some brilliant humor.
Electing Kurt Waldheim for president. That would even be totally unacceptable in Germany. I had debates about that with some Austrians. On the other hand, having an orgy dressed in a Nazi uniform (back to sports: the Max Mosley affair) would be totally unacceptable here. In fact, it´s a criminal offense here.
Another example: the word "Neger" was not considered to be offensive here until quite recently. Now it is.
But then, blacks in Brazil don´t take offense if they are called "negros". Or maybe now they do. I haven´t been there during the last ten years.
santa klaus
occasional saint
Who is al Johnson?
Haven´t seen it.
They re-enact ethnical cleansings? OMG. I have never heard about that. What are their parents thinking???
Treacle Toes
Time
People were laughing at him though rather than with him. It was a send up of a bigot. He was the object of ridicule.
Mmmmmm I see what you mean but there has to be common ground and trust of course for it to work.
The so called 'negros' in Brazil have long been amongst the most socially deprived and powerless groups. See a pattern?
It's about emergence of rights, representation and political voice. It's about being respected, listened to and treated equally.
Treacle Toes
Time
Al Jolson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jolson
Britain's own embarrassment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show
I suppose their parents are thinking this is tradition. They are thinking this is an important part of their history/Spain's history.They re-enact ethnical cleansings? OMG. I have never heard about that. What are their parents thinking???
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
Al Johnson is a soul singer, I in fact meant Al Jolson.
Surely you can see that mocking someone's appearance might be seen as offensive. The fact is that it is considered offensive and, even if the Spanish did think it was hilarious, it shows an staggering amount of ignorance that they didn't even bother to check.
They could have just made one quick post on this forum.
