SP perspectives on immigration

[dennisr]

fair play .. but i was not to know that!

anyway it is good stuff and little differrent to what i am arguing as i see it. (i think your only diagreement with me was re sons and daughters ??)

can i ask ..
1)how has it gone down in SP/ have there been problems with this in SP
2)or from critics outside SP
3) and how has it been argued on the door so to speak?

yep, we agreed that on the original thread after my initial provocation when you clarified and I then hope I better understood your actual views (you can go back and re-read it).

Its a perfectly rational view - so I like to think makes sense to members of the organisation who have already been dealing with the arguments on the ground - in workplaces, on stalls etc (funnily enough with a lass today on an nhs lobby in southwark on my part - its not a new development).

Its been tested on the knocker in the likes of huddersfield (a area i mentioned previously), in stoke (difficult - but stopped the BNP vote rising in that ward).

by the way, article from this weeks socialist about manchester site organising polish workers after increased division after dispute inwhich some non-union poles broke class solidarity (written by the shop steward): "countering the race to the bottom" - http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2007/508/index.html?id=pp2117.htm

 

[nino_savatte]

The boy is like a tape loop

I stand corrected. Still, he is like a tape loop.

 

[dennisr]

3) and how has it been argued on the door so to speak?

Sorry to come back on this. (but you have had months trying to raise the issue - so its worth replying fully)

I suppose the honest answer is probably in a very similar way to the way you or most decent folk would argue the same case to your own workmates about any other question.

Not hiding from the difficulties (recognising the effects on wages) - raising the simple points about who gains and who loses from a class point of view (ie bosses trying to use one group against another to drive all our wages down). Pointing out what folk have in common ('if you were in the same boat as the other person' - in my case - give the example of my uncles on sites in germany for example - cos they didn't have much of a choice but the effect they had on german building workers wages - that both group of workers are losing out as a result) and arguing what we think needs to be done (unionise so we are all on same wage - unity, to stop the bosses pushing out wages down and to stop the boss inspired 'race to the bottom'). Its not waving 'we love immigrants' placards in peoples faces just putting forward practical solutions to practical problems.

We don't have to go on and on about immigration and immigrants to do that - justtake up the questions folk ask. I honestly think most folk understand these points when they are made - it cuts across all the other crap they are fed.

Its about economics - rich and poor not indigenous and foriegner - and the points made simply clarify what folk already live with and experience every day. Those same folk can then work out for themselves wether or not 'immigrants' are 'the problem'.

You have to remember that a lot of folk we are talking to are already seeing some more immediate problem - coming up to us on a stall about, say, nhs cuts, being asked to buy a paper at a demo on, say, job cuts - its simply linking the issues together honestly. Elections are harder - cold calling - but the huddersfield election of a local socialist doctor is a good example of how 'real issues' cut across the crap.

 

[tbaldwin]

Good post by dennisr i reckon.

 

[nightbreed]

Sorry to come back on this. (but you have had months trying to raise the issue - so its worth replying fully)

I suppose the honest answer is probably in a very similar way to the way you or most decent folk would argue the same case to your own workmates about any other question.

Not hiding from the difficulties (recognising the effects on wages) - raising the simple points about who gains and who loses from a class point of view (ie bosses trying to use one group against another to drive all our wages down). Pointing out what folk have in common ('if you were in the same boat as the other person' - in my case - give the example of my uncles on sites in germany for example - cos they didn't have much of a choice but the effect they had on german building workers wages - that both group of workers are losing out as a result) and arguing what we think needs to be done (unionise so we are all on same wage - unity, to stop the bosses pushing out wages down and to stop the boss inspired 'race to the bottom'). Its not waving 'we love immigrants' placards in peoples faces just putting forward practical solutions to practical problems.

We don't have to go on and on about immigration and immigrants to do that - justtake up the questions folk ask. I honestly think most folk understand these points when they are made - it cuts across all the other crap they are fed.

Its about economics - rich and poor not indigenous and foriegner - and the points made simply clarify what folk already live with and experience every day. Those same folk can then work out for themselves wether or not 'immigrants' are 'the problem'.

You have to remember that a lot of folk we are talking to are already seeing some more immediate problem - coming up to us on a stall about, say, nhs cuts, being asked to buy a paper at a demo on, say, job cuts - its simply linking the issues together honestly. Elections are harder - cold calling - but the huddersfield election of a local socialist doctor is a good example of how 'real issues' cut across the crap.

This just about sums it all up for me. I agree with dennisr.

 

[durruti02]

Yeah, sorry for being a bit craggy - you seem like a decent guy and I actually quite like you despite not sharing your stance on immigration. However, your endless stream of immigration based threads do annoy the fuck out of me at times and I don't think I'm the only one.

I think the proposal to have a single thread, "Durruti02's big immigration thread" - provisional title, would be a great idea. Posting and bumping multiple threads on the same topic all at once kinda fucks up this forum at times. Could you kindly desist from doing so in the future ta.

why thank you jp .. i thought you were in an anti-bakuninist war against me??

yes these threads do seem to annoy lots of people .. frankly real life politics bugs me more!

i read the sun and mail at work and have to listen to that fuckwit john gaunt with his shitty lies and shit stirring rants against the left every day .. till you show to me that immigration is NOT as, they clearly show,the biggest ideological issue in peoples minds as we speak i will continue to post news and arguments about it ..

 

[durruti02]

Sorry to come back on this. (but you have had months trying to raise the issue - so its worth replying fully)

I suppose the honest answer is probably in a very similar way to the way you or most decent folk would argue the same case to your own workmates about any other question.

Not hiding from the difficulties (recognising the effects on wages) - raising the simple points about who gains and who loses from a class point of view (ie bosses trying to use one group against another to drive all our wages down). Pointing out what folk have in common ('if you were in the same boat as the other person' - in my case - give the example of my uncles on sites in germany for example - cos they didn't have much of a choice but the effect they had on german building workers wages - that both group of workers are losing out as a result) and arguing what we think needs to be done (unionise so we are all on same wage - unity, to stop the bosses pushing out wages down and to stop the boss inspired 'race to the bottom'). Its not waving 'we love immigrants' placards in peoples faces just putting forward practical solutions to practical problems.

We don't have to go on and on about immigration and immigrants to do that - justtake up the questions folk ask. I honestly think most folk understand these points when they are made - it cuts across all the other crap they are fed.

Its about economics - rich and poor not indigenous and foriegner - and the points made simply clarify what folk already live with and experience every day. Those same folk can then work out for themselves wether or not 'immigrants' are 'the problem'.

You have to remember that a lot of folk we are talking to are already seeing some more immediate problem - coming up to us on a stall about, say, nhs cuts, being asked to buy a paper at a demo on, say, job cuts - its simply linking the issues together honestly. Elections are harder - cold calling - but the huddersfield election of a local socialist doctor is a good example of how 'real issues' cut across the crap.

yep 100% spot on .. as i have said all along i think the SPs base means that as you say it is all fairly obvious stuff .. sadly that is not the case for other elements of the left and @ scene