Soze - teacher of Yoof

[bruise]

Cheers bruise, 11-19 (what would have been 1st yr secondary to a-level in my day

you need two subjects, then - and one of them needs to be as mainstream as possible, so that you widen your employability, lots of schools to choose from etc etc.

6th forms are making a huge comeback atm - and you might even be able to get a job simply doing 6th form - which means that your wackier choices might be more possible.

you are, of course, mad to even consider it. within three years you'll be dead having had no social life in the meantime and having failed to improve the lives of your charges in any way shape or form. drink deeply of that other thread on teaching. they aint exaggerating.

teaching might be fun with year 7s and in the 6th form - the bit between is stressful and unrewarding.

dub - i did a 'humanities' degree as well - it didn't matter then, but nowadays i think it's necessary that yer actual subjects are mentioned by the qualification. i did history * (major) and english (minor) then simply lied and swapped them around as i didn't want to do much history teaching. nobody noticed. they might notice these days. you probably need to check it out.

(*comparative US-UK labour movement history is not very useful in schools in any case)

 

[kyser_soze]

Thanks for the words of encouragement there bruise - and yeah, I realise that I must be mad to even consider it, but y'know...

PS, got a link so I can read the horror stories?

 

[bruise]

yr welcome. don't say i didn't warn you.

i was thinking of this thread

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=178981&highlight=teach

the title says it all...

 

[_angel_]

I looked into this briefly and although I've got all the right subjects one thing you will need is hours and hours of experience in schools before any PGCE will even consider you. There is a lot of competition for few places good luck.


And I think they scrapped the bursary to study as well. Unless you do a subject like Maths that they're crying out for.

 

[kyser_soze]

You need teaching exp for the PGCE? Not according to ANY of the literature I've got, unless I'm reading it incorrectly! And from what I could gather, there is still a limited bursary to train (mark of desparation from the govt as much as anything else!).

and from t'other thread:

£6,000 to train
£3,000 student loan on top.
£4,000 golden hello
Student loan paid off for you...

Bruise - it's a bit of a mixed bag really, some peeps being very down, some very positive, with pretty much the same gripes adjusted as anyone who works in a profession dealing with selfish little whiners and long hours - don't forget I'm coming from advertising so I'm used to having to:

1. Write presentations on THE most dull subjects on earth AND manage to keep an unwilling audience engaged and alive enough to answer pertinent questions.

2. Keep people's behaviour and focus in line: I've managed creative teams and worked in client servicing and liaison.

3. Worked 80+ hour weeks for no extra money, sign of promotion or reward (and without a 6 week break during the summer either)

Now while I'm in no way expecting kids to be anything LIKE as childish or vindictive as a creative team whom you've just told their work is shite, I realise that it is fucking hard and exhausting, but still, at least at the end of the day I won't go home thinking 'Hey, I just persuaded a load of peeps to buy Blotto Beer even tho it is in fact made from raw camel piss, God I'm SO happy I get to use my intellect in such a useful and satisfying fashion'

 

[treefrog]

Good luck Soze, may I recommend getting in touch with Dante?

I'd help you out, but I'm not really very useful ATM...

 

[kyser_soze]

Will do froggie.

 

[spanglechick]

darling - as someone who's well back into the swing, and has around 6 years classroom experience, i'd say that teaching is bloody rewarding - especially between years eight and 11. (the old 2nd to fifth years).

citizenship seems really cool - i seriously considered retraining for a while. And is the only of your subjects in the core curriculum, and so is essential for your employment prospects. you may well end up teaching PSHCE (personal, social, health and citizenship ed) in lower years and citizenship just to exam groups - that's how it works at my school, and it means you get to do cool stuff like STDs etc.


a lot of teachers of this subect end up teaching RE too, and when you do get a job you'll probably find a couple of lessons of history on your timetable too.

the other subjects are fine to qualify in, but not all schools offer any, let alone all of them. my school - a large community high school offers nothing on that list.

but i think you should definately train in 11-19. you can always work in post 16 with that qualification, but not vice versa.

i don't know the situation in Maddelene's area, but i've never heard of PGCE applicants needing experience. it won't do your application any harm though, and if you want to arrange some time observing in a high school, i'm sure i could help you there.

your crim record will stand up to enhanced disclosure, i take it?

 

[Pieface]

I've been following all these NQT and back to school threads and they've all been scaring the living shit out of me tbh

I'm thinking about the PGCE next year too, Kyser, but haven't got much past the thinking about it stage, reading other people's experiences on here and talking to other teachers.

It certainly looks a challenge.....erm I'm still undecided about it.

 

[Dante]

yay, another one for the maelstrom.

Before the useful bit. You will not have time for a job during the PGCE. Seriously.
But there are ways and means...

That can wait till you get the course sorted (though save as much as you can now.)

Right. Courses.

I like the list you've put together, BUT.

Citezenship - You will end up teaching some humanities lessons. Some schools will have one citizenship teacher, with a co-ordinator role. So the lessons will be taught by the form teacher. ( i say some, i mean most iirc) This is due to the lack of time on the timetable, lack of money for specialists, and lack of specialists to do the teaching. So you would end up writing the schemes of work and lesson plans for everyone else in the school, on top of your normal responsibilites (probably KS3 English/History/Geography)

Business - Mostly KS4 and post 16, though with lots of oppurtunities to run activity days and weeks for KS3 and G&T (young enterprise for instance). Still a newish subject, lots of oppurtunites to teach the reality of business and society (almost more than Citizenship when you consider that the kids are fascinated by it)

E-subjects... Weeeeel. Do anything "E" and you will end up teaching ICT/Business. But not many schools are involved in E-learning of any discription (my area really, and its a bugger finding somewhere i can use as a case study for a paper. No schools ahve the money or interest). If you've got experience its great, but you can teach any subject as an E-learning course as long as you have the subject knowledge.)

Saying that, E-learning is the future, so do keep it in mind, go on all the courses you can and bug all the schools you are at to start implemeting it.

Media - again you may end up teaching ICT,

tbh from that list which do you prefer, Business/Media, History/Politics/Citizenship or ICT/E-biz/marketing.

Because in the end you will end up teaching generic stuff to KS3 in one of these areas.

But best of luck

 

[catinthehat]

The subjects you are interested in are more likely to get you a full time post in FE as a lot of them are not Nat Curric. Also you need to ensure your PGCE is going to get you GTC regsitration as not all do. You dont need to have teaching experience to do the PGCE (Cert Ed you do) but you will do teaching practice during the PGCE.

Check the subject take up at GCSE and A level to get an idea of the number of jobs that exist or go to the TES website and do a search - for some of the subjects you mention jobs are few.

You will need to offer at least two subjects and be prepared - if in FE - to teach almost anything in some places, my degrees are Sociology and Psychology with a smattering of post grad stuff and I have taught History, Psychology, Sociology, Criminology, Communications, Citizenship, Social Policy and Cultural Studies over the years. You might also consider adding Critical Thinking to your list as a possible and there are core skills as well.

The Redbricks have recently issued a list of the A Levels that they consider to be relevant to them and do not inlclude Gen Studies or Media but do include Sociology. Which tends to be derided by people who have either not studied or or only studied it to GCSE or A level. Most Unis rate it because its critical, theoretical and includes research skills.

Although you may find yourself teaching a range of subject that are not your degree or related to any previous career you will find a lot of FE colleges will expect you to have a degree in the subject that you are taken on to teach.

As for working whilst doing your PGCE I worked part time but during my teaching practice was asked to take on some part time paid teaching in addition to my teaching practice which by the end of my PGCE had turned into almost a full time job so they actually paid me for my teaching practice classes. When I have had PGCE students to mentor I have always been able to put some work their way - absence cover etc. Pays about 18 quid an hour depending on the college.

All sectors have pros and cons. Secondary tends to have better T and C than FE but there are far more classroom management issues. FE you tend to get well motivated mature students who are a dream to teach and will give you loads of positive feedback but they tend to be more corporate (or try to be) seem to have worse management and T and C are not as good as Secondary. Unis are almost impossible to get a full time job but leave you alone to get on with it more.

Also though FE do take in pre 16s now they tend to be in vocational areas rather than the areas you are interested in. In FE you may get GCSE and A level teaching, Undergrads year 1 and 2 for Uni linked courses, BTECs and HNDs and Access.

Not sure I have added much but information is power an all that.

 

[bruise]

but i think you should definately train in 11-19. you can always work in post 16 with that qualification, but not vice versa.

make sure you don't miss that piece of advice. absolutely right.

plus another reason is that most secondary school is waaaaay ahead of FE in terms of pedagogy, standards, skills etc etc. mostly cos they have to be good to survive.

in school it's your job to motivate and interest the fuckers. in FE it's like - if you're not interested - there's the door.

different worlds.





but. big but. they are messing up FE big time. one of the issues is 14-19 - they're using FE to dump the growing number of children the sec school sector is failing and excluding.

as that first bit of advice says - those who have trained only for FE are not qualified to take on underage children (ie 14-16). in my college that's prob more than half the staff - i'm rare in having QTS. so we (union people) keep saying - so what about in loco parentis? how is this legal (let alone ethical, a good idea etc etc). answer - get this - the underage child is still on role somewhere at some school that could be the other side of town and who have maybe not seen them for a couple of years! that school, who isn't in contact with the kid, or us, still has legal, day to day duty of care for that kid. i'm gob smacked. that can't be legal or safe.

here's the other aspect of it. schools are excluding more and more as the league table culture bites deep. kids end up at worse schools or in off-site units for challenging behaviour. then even those small specialist unit fails them (for whatever reason, not a criticism) - so, get this beauty - they get sent to FE. where they aren't monitored. don't have any kind of supervision at break times. are now 'supervised' by teachers who don't have QTS, or any specialism in challenging behaviour or all the issues the children need support with, teachers who are used to working with self-motivated adults and all in a situation that is essentially illegal. and, of course, the child typically started with loads of issues - now has mega amounts, and has just been dropped in with all our scally 16 - 19 yo who are lining up to introduce them to any bad habits they haven't yet acquired.

behaviour is getting worse. last ac year we had two gun incidents, one knifing, three fires. plus we had an unfortunate situation where a fuckwit manager called in a swot team to subdue a student with mental health issues (who was causing no danger to anyone or themselves, just behaving strangely). we had trouble the year before but not as bad. the year before that i don't remember any incidents. so you can see where we're going. already this term (2/3 weeks) we've had one kid excluded for fighting who then returned with an iron bar in a bag and smashed open some other kid's head. nice.

add to that a near-criminal management culture (there have been several serious instances of corruption since incorporation) and certainly the most incompetent management you are likely to meet - worse even than sec schools - with an increasing ratio of agency staff - in some places the majority over permanent staff - with all the quality and involvement issues that implies...

then there's a funding ratchet - our college has something like 1% full cost recovery courses at the moment (inner city london) - as is only right - our ethos is lifelong learning / back to education / second chance etc - ie not people with money. within something like 5 years we have to have 25% full cost recovery - this isn't a target - this is a requirement, and direct funding will gradually be withdrawn whether or not we find those amazing people who want to pay for courses at our college.

they're banning us from using GCSE as the good way back into education it is (one of the most credible exams out there) and we even have to refuse to allow school kids who missed the last few years of school from taking it - as we're only supposed to offer it as a re-take.

you get the picture. hence why to avoid FE. until we get a Labour government to put it all right. yeh right. sick joke.

the students, on the whole are great. everything else - literally everything else about FE stinks to high heaven.

sorry - something about this triggered a rant. i'll go and take me meds.



anyways - secondary school it is.

that point about needing experience to get on a PGCE is complete bollox. i don't know where that came from. they do, however, want to know that you've spent a couple of days shadowing in school. which is only right. until you've done that you are not going to be aware of the full horror of what you are letting yourself in for so might flunk out halfway through the course. and PGCEs are already massively wasteful (there's some shameful stat about how few gone on to teach and how many drop out within the first few years)

and just to correct one impression - i think the age group is superb - lovely lovely people at a really interesting stage in their life - which you realise when you go on trips or do other stuff like that. but i think what we do to them - herd them on mass into a factory-style education then test them to death - brings out the collective worst in them. and that is what makes the job stressful and frustrating.

but kyser, dub and pieeye and whoever else - don't let me put you off. go for it. i just hope you are physically fit. mentally tough. and can match the energy of the age group.

though i have to say kyser - your list of trying to convince us / yourself that you're up to the job is funny but way off the mark. remember it / save it for after you've been teaching for a while and you'll see what i mean.

 

[Treacle Toes]

in school it's your job to motivate and interest the fuckers. in FE it's like - if you're not interested - there's the door.

different worlds.

As a teacher of FE students I'd like to say there are more than a few of us who spend a lot of time and energy trying to, and succeeding in motivating our students.

It is true however, that because FE education is not compulsory, we do have 'there's the door' to fall back on when dealing with 'difficult/impossible to teach' students. I personally only use that approach when asking the student to take a 5 minute break from the room, giving them a chance to think and myself and the rest of the group some peace.

At FE level, it's easier to nuture a sense of responsibilty and ownership in the students towards their education, being as most often they are there because they want to be, not because the law says they have to be.

 

[Treacle Toes]

the students, on the whole are great. .

Agreed. I was chatting to a colleague today saying that the only time I laugh, joke and smile at work is with my students.

 

[bruise]

As a teacher of FE students I'd like to say there are more than a few of us who spend a lot of time and energy trying to, and succeeding in motivating our students.

gawd - urban seems to have got a bit po-faced in my absence.

yeh, i wasn't being entirely serious - it's only the underlying reality thing. my job is precisely to motivate and help students, and yes, i do it very well and very much appreciate the chance to do so and get a lot from my students. (i support students with complex needs of one kind or another)

i think the implication in what you said that you think i would ever say anything like that to a student. i wouldn't. and wouldn't need to. it's just that being non compulsory, that's the real basis of FE. school is compulsory - children don't get a choice and parents are being dragged through the courts to reinforce that point. imho, everything else is deeply affected by these ethical, structural and legal realities.

another difference is i've never had anything other than 100% appreciation for my efforts from FE students (and my section gets that kind of approval rating in student satisfaction questionnaires as it happens). it's not always like that in sec school where you do get a lot of feedback, but not that directly.

however - in FE as soon as you turn to your line management or wider services like to do with equipment, accommodation, policies, security, conditions or service, whatever - you quickly realise all the actual decisions are made by complete idiots.

the main reality is incorporation - FE is like Scotland being used to road test the Poll Tax. the tories effectively privatised (like non-profit) all FE colleges. it was a disaster. even the Tories realised that version wouldn't work across the maintained sector (which was originally the plan). having ditched it, though. everybody 'forgot' to put it right again in FE, and we've been suffering the consequences ever since.

now nuLab are taking the privatisation a step way deeper and more neo-con that the tories could have drempt of. bizarre.

 

[JHE]

now nuLab are taking the privatisation a step way deeper and more neo-con that the tories could have drempt of. bizarre.

More 'neo-con'? They're sending your students to fight in the Middle East?

My adult basic skills students (not in FE, unfortunately) wouldn't stand for it!

 

[scifisam]

Sounds like your best bet is to do a Humanities PGCE. The competition for those is higher than for other subjects, so getting unpaid work experience would help a lot, and it would also help when applying for a real job afterwards. Humanities is a difficult subject to teach, since it includes so many disparate subjects and many of the kids think of it as a doss lesson, but the actual content is very worthwhile.

Some unis (not sure which) offer specific Citizenship PGCEs, but, again, they are oversubscribed.

Student loans are no longer paid off for trainee teachers. The bursary is now higher - £9,000 - but you will have to pay fees of £3,000. In humanities you would not get a golden hello. The student loan has to be paid back and has not great interest rates, compared to old student loans. You would, however, be exempt from council tax, which is worth a fair few bob.

Media is a subsidiary of English, so you'd need to train as an English teacher in order to have a realistic chance of teaching that subject (secondary). This *may* be possible if Eng. Lit. was part of your degree and you have English A-Level, but it would, again, be more competitive.

Look into the GTP route - getting paid to train on the job. It takes more work to apply for, but is a better course and offers better prospects in the long run. Perhaps also consider applying for teaching assistant jobs in the meantime.

I teach secondary, and came there from the FE sector. I wouldn't go back to FE again now - low pay, no job security, no long-term contracts, unsociable hours. Best to at least start out in secondary.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

i'm thinking along similar lines, and need to finish my degree at OU. was doing PPE but i'll probably end up with a generic Humanities degree from OU in the end because of the way the credit system works. Was thinking about teaching media or cultural studies (my background in the media would help) but somehting like citizenship sounds feasible too.

But how the FUCK do you survive while you do the PGCE?

yeah i want to do it when i go back to the uk (hopefully primary) but have the wife and son to think about

 

[Biddlybee]

No advice on what to teach.. but been meaning to say you'll make a great teacher

 

[foo]

kyser you've got a good sense of humour, and don't take yourself too seriously - so i reckon you'll do good and the kids'll love you.

good luck honey x

 

[Red Cat]

This may sound really obvious and I’m sure you’ve already done this but you need to speak to the teacher training people, TTA?, whoever they are these days and get some real advice. However, that being said, i'm not sure if they get brownie points for organising shadow/visiting days in schools, for example, in which case, they won't advise you correctly. I had a day with the humanities dept of a school organised through the TTA but even though i was told by the head of humanities after a visit that they really liked me, thought i was great with the kids, would suppport my placement there etc....was then told by unis that i didn't have the 'right' degree.

Its actually really difficult getting in to teaching despite the shortages, high drop-out rate etc. unless you have a 'straight' degree that accords with those subjects taught on the syllabus. There is no shortage of history teachers with history degrees for example – they’re going to pick those with history and geography above someone with sociology or politics. I have an MA in history and philosophy of science and medicine, a BA in French, vocational experience in IT, aswell as political activity which would enable me to teach citizenship. My sister who teaches music thought they’d love someone like me as once you’re actually teaching they love it if they can save money by getting you to teach all sorts of stuff that isn’t your subject – she teaches media about which she knows nothing, or thinks she does, but as I also used to work on a magazine, I do, kind of. But actually there is no subject that I can get on a course for. There are very few courses that teach single language PGCE (which I didn’t want to do anyway), there are a couple (Institute of Ed. Cos tand East London uni) that consider that if you’ve studied any literature you can teach English but you need to really prove you know your stuff i.e. Shakespeare and English poets. As for politics…..you’re talking 6th form and everyone wants to teach 6th form. My MA was too specialized – I was told I wouldn’t get on a history/humanities PGCE. As for citizenship…the school that I worked in as a TA told me they wouldn’t take someone with citizenship PGCE..they would only take someone with humanities who could teach it as an extra – I was warned against it in terms of employability.

You may be lucky and there is, or was, a Social Science PGCE at Goldsmiths that looks excellent if it still exists and that may be something you could do. If it is, it sounds great, and you'd be in a really good 'critical' environment if its as good as it sounds. You would teach humanities from age 11 to 13/14 and then sociology/economics/politics/psychology in GCSE years depending on your subject and also 6th form where there is more choice of subject.

I didn't want it enough to do the swatting to go for the English PGCE, which is the subject i would have liked to teach. After 1 yr as a TA in the Eng. dept i realised that the english that i was taught i.e lots of reading, creative writing etc. had been eclipsed by skills based stuff - like writing advertising copy for example! My view of teaching english was a very romantisised one. I don't want to sound too negative - i had the most amazing experiences with kids coming up with little plays, 'talk shows' and seeing alienated kids who thought they were too 'thick' to get in to shakespeare, with a few nudges in the right direction, really blossom in that direction. But i knew i wouldn't be able to stand the whole tests, measurements, skills for employers shit that dominates state education against the will and dreams of those teaching. And despite my continued passion for teaching my main passion is so-called 'mental health'.

Get in touch with Goldsmiths and see if you can get on their course - if you can do that then i reckon you're on to a good thing. Otherwise I would think you need to think about FE training - but as others have pointed out you'd have job insecurity, low pay etc.

I may be a couple of years out of date and your background is not the same as mine but don't imagine that because you have lots of stuff to offer that it makes you a good candidate - it sounds mad and it is mad but thats the way it is. The whole getting rid of the 'lefties' begun by Thatcher which made subject speciality i.e. no politics students teaching possibly 'left wing' history and the standards, testing, testing testing testing thing doesn't leave much room for those who don't fit into boxes to move into teaching.

Do your research. Go on a day visit to a school ( i loved mine and got a barely subsistence level job out of it, which despite the difficulties i really enjoyed) and speak to the teachers or head of dept about what they consider your chances to be. You may need experience if you're after a GTP but you won't get a GTP with your background unless you've a secret physics degree? They're only or usually available for core subjects in which there is a shortage i.e English, maths and science. As much experience in the ed. system is advisable though - if you wanted to go for primary teaching, for example, then this would definitely be an advantage, where there is much more competition.

Good luck! Definitely get in touch with Goldsmiths and get in to a school for a day or two and talk to people on the ground. I think its tragic that all sorts of people who want to get into teaching can't cos they don't fit into a box - but perhaps you will fit just enough to do it!