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South African: Striking Miners Killed as Police Open Fire

Discussion in 'world politics, current affairs and news' started by audiotech, Aug 16, 2012.

  1. Ozone

    Ozone no pollution

    Are you South African, Pickman?

    You can't look at this from UK eyes, there's no comparison between the two, although its an easy mistake to make.....
     
    likesfish likes this.
  2. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model The word of Sin is Restriction

    So the sharpeville shootings were, in context, a wholly understandable and proportionate reaction? That the shooting down of men in an apparent ambush by the police is something only the south african among us can fully comprehend?
     
    Libertad and frogwoman like this.
  3. DaveCinzano

    DaveCinzano WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!

    If only we could more efficiently organise the world, so that only those with direct, personal understanding of a place or a culture were allowed to express a view, to consider evidence, to present analysis, to make comparisons.

    A way of acknowledging the many differences that exist between between discrete groups of people with different common experiences and culture to those in other discrete groups.

    Some method of regulating apartness.
     
  4. frogwoman

    frogwoman Whatever's meant to go here.

    separate but equal.
     
    Libertad likes this.
  5. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model The word of Sin is Restriction

    But some people are more equal than others
     
  6. LLETSA

    LLETSA We've all had enough. Banned Banned


    That's what dreams tend to do: end.

    There are no exceptions.
     
  7. Ozone

    Ozone no pollution

    What does Sharpeville have to do with this? This is about Lonmin. I am not advocating that you need to be South African to express an opinion on the situation, but I do believe unless you have an intricate understanding of the country it's all too easy to make assumptions and judgments that are out of context. It's easy to criticise the police and shout "atrocity" from the comfort of your desk (or armchair?) in the UK, but the situation in SA is so complex. This incident is not as simple/ cut and dry as being about police killing innocent citizens, its about an extremely complex system, a government that is failing the poorest of poor, corruption, influence of the past, violence that has become acceptable in other everyday situations, unemployment, anger, frustration........and much much more.
    Human life is cheap in South Africa.
     
    theCIA likes this.
  8. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model The word of Sin is Restriction

    Are you saying it's not an atrocity because human life is cheap in south africa?
     
    frogwoman likes this.
  9. likesfish

    likesfish chanelling mike from spaced

    Its an atrocity.
    But easily explainable one angry armed mob confronts poorly trained cops with automatic weaponary.
    Doesnt really need a conspriacy theory to explain anymore.
     
  10. LLETSA

    LLETSA We've all had enough. Banned Banned


    I think he's saying that because life is cheap in South Africa, as in most of the world, actually, events like this should come as no surprise.

    In fact, if this had happened in, say, a former Soviet central Asian state or somewhere in Latin America, nobody would bat an eyelid.
     
  11. Ozone

    Ozone no pollution

    No, if you read my post again, you'll see those are two separate observations.
    1) Easy to criticise something you may not have an intricate understanding of.
    2) There are many problems in South Africa which may have led to or influenced this incident, the fact that so many people die in violent circumstances every day, being one of them.
     
  12. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model The word of Sin is Restriction

    It is very easy to criticise the murder of 44 people and the wounding of a further 200
     
  13. kropotkin

    kropotkin libcom

    marriage going down the pan :(
     
    dennisr likes this.
  14. Libertad

    Libertad Sweetie

    I would bat an eyelid, don't coat everyone with your dystopian brush.
     
    Random likes this.
  15. LLETSA

    LLETSA We've all had enough. Banned Banned


    Whose?
     
  16. LLETSA

    LLETSA We've all had enough. Banned Banned



    I meant nobody in the sense of everybody but the Urban75 poster Libertad.
     
    Libertad likes this.
  17. JimW

    JimW 支那暗杀团

    The recent massacre in Kazakhstan we had a thread on here went past fairly unnoticed in global media terms from what I could tell.
     
  18. revol68

    revol68 what, fucking what?

    RIC? I think you mean the RUC and even in that case you were wrong, it was the Parachute regiment that did the shooting.
     
  19. Libertad

    Libertad Sweetie

    Exceedingly magnanimous of you. Thank you kindly.
     
  20. Ozone

    Ozone no pollution

    Pickman, are you confusing the Bloody Sundays of 1913/20/21 with the Bloody Sunday of '72?

    Easy mistake to make.... ;)
     
  21. sorry to hear that mate:(
     
  22. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model The word of Sin is Restriction

    I am talking about the 1919-21 period.No ruc then I think you'll find
     
  23. revol68

    revol68 what, fucking what?

    quite but considering the Bloody Sunday of that time was carried out by Black and Tans drafted into reinforce the RIC it seemed odd, also the period during the war of independence isn't really akin to the situation in South Africa at present, the killings by the paras of those on the civil rights march in 72 are a more fitting comparison.
     
  24. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model The word of Sin is Restriction

    yes you are right I should have put "bloody sunday (1972)". But are you aware of any footage of the tan war's bloody sunday? I thought the reference to footage might have given away which one I meant.
     
  25. Pingu

    Pingu Credo


    he probably means the rlc - there was an infamous incident where the loggies delivered vodka, tomato juice, and Worcestershire sauce to a barracks in the costwolds on a sunday. the resulting attrocity in the sergents mess was known as bloody mary sunday but over the years this has become shortened to just bloody sunday
     
    likesfish, revol68 and dylanredefined like this.
  26. ayatollah

    ayatollah Well-Known Member

    There are an excellent series of reports on the Socialist Worker website today on the massacre, and the background to the "Lonmin" company (I didn't realise it was the ghastly "Lonrho" renamed ). Socialist Worker seems to have a bit of a scoop, with its detailed report on the pre-planned nature of this massacre:

    Strikers were surrounded by heavily armed police and soldiers, and killed while fleeing from gunfire. The state forces were not “protecting themselves”. They participated in well-organised, premeditated slaughter.
    We interviewed surviving miners and looked at physical evidence on the site of the massacre. What we found is even more shocking than the story presented in the media, even here in South Africa. Follow numbered events on the map above.
    1: On the day of the killing about 3,000 striking miners were gathered on and just below the “mountain” (actually a small hill). Joseph Mathunjwa, president of their union, the AMCU, came and pleaded with them to leave to avoid a police attack. The miners refused.
    2: Within 15 minutes of Mathunjwa leaving, the police and army laid razor wire, separating the strikers from the Enkanini informal settlement, where many of them live. Casspirs (armoured cars), horses and water cannon moved up to encircle the workers.
    3: Some workers walked down to the razor wire to see if they could still get out through a gap. Witnesses say police near the “small koppie” (hillock) opened fire on them, probably with rubber bullets.
    Some workers fled through a five metre gap in the razor wire. They were met with a barrage of live fire from the police and many died. Images of this shooting were broadcast around the world.
    4: Terrified strikers scattered in all directions, with a large number heading for cover by a koppie about 300 metres in the opposite direction from the wire. This “killing koppie” is where the largest number of strikers died.
    No cameras recorded this slaughter. But evidence remained on Monday, four days after the massacre. There are remnants of pools of blood. Police markers show where corpses were removed. We found markers labelled with letters up to ‘J’.
    5-8: Other strikers were killed as they fled across the fields. Some examples are marked on the map. Shots were fired from helicopters and some workers, heading for hillock, were crushed by Casspirs.
    By Monday the whole area had been swept clean of rubber bullets, bullet casings and tear-gas canisters. We also saw patches of burned grass, which local workers claim are the remains of police fires used to obscure evidence of deaths.

    Women march to support the miners

    Sisters, wives and daughters of the miners marched to the “mountain” on the Saturday after the massacre. One woman told us, “The television is hiding the truth about the killings. It’s lying!”
    Another said, “My husband has worked here for 27 years—waking up at 3am and returning at 2.30pm. “He earns 3,000 rand (£230) a month. What clown would earn so little and not protest?”
    They told us about the shootings. “All we saw was a helicopter flying. We heard shots. Then we saw men running and cops picking up anyone running around the streets.”
    Many have not seen their relatives since the massacre. Some didn’t know if they were in hospital, in prison or dead. They also face immediate practical problems. One said, “We have no money for rent, food, for our children’s schools. We expect no more income this month.”
    Thapelo Lekgowa, Botsang Mmope and Claudia Ortu
     
  27. revol68

    revol68 what, fucking what?

    but you just said you were talking about the 1919-21 period which is why you referred to the RIC...
     
  28. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model The word of Sin is Restriction

    when i was talking about the ric i was talking about the 1919-21 period. that is, the second paragraph was talking about a different period from the first paragraph.
     
  29. revol68

    revol68 what, fucking what?

    right, so you're just an incoherent idiot throwing out non sequitur rather than an chancer passing himself off as knowing irish history and being unwilling to admit when he made a balls up.

    clown.
     
  30. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model The word of Sin is Restriction

    i agreed with you above, in post 144, that it was a bit unclear. having said that and clarified i wonder why you are continuing to have difficulties with the post. unless you're thick, that is.

    btw, could you explain what you mean by 'non sequitur' because you seem to have a different definition to me.
     

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