South African: Striking Miners Killed as Police Open Fire

Discussion in 'world politics, current affairs and news' started by audiotech, Aug 16, 2012.

  1. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    * a few more dead cops would be no bad thing - give them all necklaces

    * aside from the two blakelocks, there were another 8 dead. who killed them?

    * if you think the two dead cops played a part the other day you may be right. but I think you should have a look at previous massacres of strikers so you undersyand that where this occurs any old excuse - or none - will be used. If this had happened the day after the cops had been chopped, it might be seen as "umderstandable over-reaction". Coming so long after the deaths and involving so many officers who are clearly disciplined I don't think you can really invoke such a cause
  2. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    Btw pingu you don't think the firing's disciplined. I do, because among other things the entire fucking operation seems to me to be an ambush, in which the object is to kill as many of the enemy as possible. And it's telling they're *all* firing on full automatick throughout.
    Kaka Tim, Belushi and Random like this.
  3. Pingu

    Pingu Credo

    hard to argue with such rasoned debate and real world views...

    i possibly have more real world experience of SA than most here (i spend time there for work and have done for 20 years plus) and at the risk of making a sweeping generalisation the level of police training and discipline in SA isnt the best. some are best described as "official thugs" and at best heavily armed government militia. that they bottled it when faced with what could have been thought as* a group running at them doenst really surprise me. could have been handled way way better then it was but I can understand the reaction that occured. they faced a groupl running towrads them.. didnt know how to react.. poor discipline and training meant they just opened fire and made no real attempt to use their shots in any selective manner. kinda a south park "he was comming at me" type reaction...bang bang bang...

    if you think what you saw there was disciplined and controlled fire you really dont know anything about this sort of thing. that wasnt controlled or disciplined in any way it was just "shit shit shit they are comming towards me...*pulls trigger whilst gun is facing in the general direction of the percieved threat* some of them are not even aiming

    * which as it looks to me was people running away from tear gas or similar rather than a "mob charging the bizzies"
    likesfish and Random like this.
  4. solidyeoman

    solidyeoman Well-Known Member

    Since no one else doing anything I'm going to picket outside south african embsassy trafalgarquare at 1pm on Monday - i really hope you will join me.
    Random and BigTom like this.
  5. BigTom

    BigTom Well-Known Member

    THere's a demo today at 4pm at the Lonmin HQ, 4 Grosvenor Place
  6. Bernie Gunther

    Bernie Gunther Fundamentalist Druid

    Did you see the Al Jazeera footage? Puts it in a slightly different perspective, particularly on why they were running in the direction they were.

    Watch the way the cops box them in with vehicles (Al Jazeera says razor wire too, which we can see in the other clip) and channel them towards the killing ground.

    Then cops with shotguns form one side of a classic "L" shape, firing between the vehicles and drive them into the line of cops with assault rifles, who (see other video) are hidden until the last minute behind one of those armoured carriers.

    Fire discipline might have been a bit ragged, but that looks awfully like a deliberate massacre to me.
  7. Pingu

    Pingu Credo

    I dont have sufficient information to draw that, or any other real conclusion tbh - and tbh no one who wasnt there currently has either. Certainly thos eof us sitting thousands of miles away relying on youtube and TV edited videos dont. the information is too fragmented and any agendas are unknown.

    all i can say is stuff based on my understanding and experiences of the country and then add in what I have seen in the aforementioned video clips.

    it may well turn out to be a delierate, planned massacre... or it may turn out to be a botched attempt at preventing something* we dont have sufficient information currently to draw a definate conclusions. in the videos released to date i would say that the poloice in those videos are showing at best an unorgaised and unsure response to the situation and at worst panic due to not knowing what to do. compare their reactions and actions to that of highly trained troops engaged in a contact (loads of videos on you tube from afghanistan etc). the safa police have no co-ordination, they clearly have officers there but there is no fire direction, no coordination, no calling of targets and not obvious command decisions being communicated. IMO they panicked and reacted by backing off whilst letting rip.

    * based upon whats been shown so far its not looking good for the safa police at this time though.
  8. Dowie

    Dowie Well-Known Member

    It might go some way towards explaining some 'panic' - still a completely callous attitude towards human life on the part of the police - they weren't under fire from anyone, there are plenty of people shown there who were not carrying weapons when shot.
  9. likesfish

    likesfish officaly hardest and most tooled up urbanite:)

    True looked like something you'd do on exercise for a laugh with blanks or having a caddy on a range.
    Rather than at people even the paras on bloody sunday didnt use automatic fire.
  10. Fuchs66

    Fuchs66 Ring a ding

    It had to happen eventually. :(
  11. solidyeoman

    solidyeoman Well-Known Member

    The most effective way to show solidarity would be to disrupt the test match at Lords today as in the Springboks tour in the early 70s. I did it then but aint got the bottle now.
    Random and Libertad like this.
  12. Deareg

    Deareg Well-Known Member

    Just reported on Sky news that mine owners have given the strikers a deadline to go back to work or be sacked!
  13. Libertad

    Libertad Would it help?

    Fair enough though eh? After all it was an "illegal" strike. :mad:
  14. dylanredefined

    dylanredefined Not a house elf a tiger

    Well if it was disciplined the weapon would be in the shoulder rather than just fired in general direction of the mob.Which may be
    just the poor skills of the policeman seen. It seemed an attitude of ''Oh fuck whats happening'!'' Rather than steely eyed killers who had set out to ambush and kill some miners.
  15. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    Do you really think that it mattered where, on the horizontal plane, they aimed? At least 236 bullets hit home. Which, out of say 560 bullets fired isn't a bad hit rate.
  16. albionism

    albionism A successful virus clinging to a speck of mud.

    Looked like a fucking ambush to me. Premeditated mass murder.
    Kaka Tim likes this.
  17. DrRingDing

    DrRingDing 'anti-human wanker'

    That's what I suspected.
  18. DaveCinzano


    Seeing as the fusillade died down to nothing pretty much from the first "Cease fire!", to the layman it doesn't look like the automatic firearmed cops were that ill-disciplined.

    A few questions:

    (1) What are the standard operating procedures and general rules of engagement for SAPS in relation to demonstrations and the use of firearms;
    (2) What were the specific deployment orders given to SAPS officers on this operation, and what additional RoE if any were authorised;
    (3) What, if any, specific orders to fire were given on the ground, when, and by whom?

    Meanwhile, something to exercise your chuckle glands:

    (From the SAPS press release, 16/8/12.)

    No news on the omnipresent samurai sword cache, rentamob packed lunches or 'suspected explosive devices' one associates with similarly hyperbolic early onset bullshit here in the UK, though.
    Random likes this.
  19. Ozone

    Ozone no pollution

    Yeah, with loads of cameras and journo's and the eyes of the world on them, this seems very likely.....
  20. extra dry

    extra dry Happy to be here

    this is fooage which is a lot clearer, I have not looked at the whole thread if this has been done sorry, It did appear fairly horrific organized ambush
    Pickman's model likes this.
  21. peterkro

    peterkro Greasin' on American Express card.

    I'm still thinking of buying shares in a snooker ball manufacturer,must be millions of the bastards lying about the world.
    DaveCinzano likes this.
  22. Pickman's model

    Pickman's model Every man and every woman is a star

    you've not seen the footage of bloody sunday then.

    it's well documented that the ric were told they could kill people without any prospect of facing charges. perhaps these cops were told the same thing.
    albionism likes this.
  23. not-bono-ever

    not-bono-ever Not what they want but what is good for them

  24. theCIA

    theCIA Lady Gaga's greatest hits

    Thats how saffa cops roll, cold blooded murder in front of Al-jaz, Reuters...

    So this, apparently, are how events took place:




    Some evidence suggests that miners might have shot first:

    These poor miners. Another pot in the South African kitchen boiling over. They are paid
    an absolute pittance for the work they do. Many are far from their families and do some of the most dangerous work on the planet. For around £350 a month.They are desperate, with unions doing nothing but work in the interest of their leaders. Political leaches are falling over themselves to mine this incident for as much political gold as they can.


    This will happen again, this is a complete failure of leadership on all sides and is not an isolated incident. We see more and more violent protests every week, mostly about failing service delivery. Water and electricity infrastructures are falling to pieces while ministers stuff their pockets. International companies are sucking the country dry while the situation for people on the ground are going nowhere. Where will this end?
    Libertad likes this.
  25. dylans

    dylans overlord of all acorns

    The company has lifted its threat to sack miners who remain on strike claiming sacking workers may lead to more violence (well duh) This is a victory of sorts. Now they need to strengthen and extend the strike. Its easy to forget in all this tragedy that this is an ongoing strike and a bloody just one at that. That strike continues
    Libertad likes this.
  26. likesfish

    likesfish officaly hardest and most tooled up urbanite:)

    Probably stopped shooting because they needed to reload an automtic rifle emptys its magazine in a couple of seconds same as if you just keeping pulling the trigger.
    You heard cease fire because they'd stopped shooting shouting cease fire at somebody firing a machine gun never works they cant here you :(
  27. 8ball

    8ball Up to something

    Fuck - I somehow managed to completely miss hearing about this. :eek:

    Why is this not all over the news? :(
  28. solidyeoman

    solidyeoman Well-Known Member

  29. solidyeoman

    solidyeoman Well-Known Member

    Protest at South Africa v England one day cricket international at The Oval on August 31st - inside and outside
  30. 8ball

    8ball Up to something

    If that's a pic it's not got past my filter - am at work...

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