Something left-minded people COULD do ...

[glenquagmire]

Yep. Most of the members I represent are white collar workers. Can't comment on whether they're trendy white collars or not as it's not really my specialist subject. Maybe they should just be ignored?

 

[poster342002]

arse licking and creeping is the best way for at least a minority and possibly a simple majority

It has been the the near-total majority in every place I've ever worked.

but that approach leads gradually down hill but appeals to principles do not work with such people

That's probably the vast majority of workplaces in Britain fucked, then, along with any hope for any Trade Union conciousness. In my experience, there is indeed no reasoning with these people - and when these people form the vast majority, it's an indication of how up shit creek we are.

 

[nino_savatte]

I think calling people 'white collar trendy lefties' is the beginings of hostililty...

Exactly, they're still workers.

 

[poster342002]

Exactly, they're still workers.

Try telling them that. They just will not wear it. It just goes in one ear and out the other to accompanying titters, sniggering and accusations of "you're living in the past".

Workers they may theoretically be.

But they're happier being corporte-ladderclimbing ass-pirational, individualistic crawlers.

 

[Fruitloop]

God this is depressing.

 

[nino_savatte]

Innit?

 

[kyser_soze]

Try telling them that. They just will not wear it. It just goes in one ear and out the other to accompanying titters and sniggering.

Workers they may theoretically be.

But they're happier being corporte-ladderclimbing ass-pirational, individualistic crawlers.

Have you tried looking at how you approach the subject? The language you use, the attitude you bring into the conversation? As I said to Fruitloop, you can't simply assume that as soon as you make your argument that it will be accepted as gospel truth, as some kind of revelation. You're talking about a generation of people schooled in anti-union propaganda, who might have seen the emasculation of the trade unions in the 80s - it never ceases to amaze me you think it's simply a question of saying 'We're all workers together, we need solidarity against the bosses' is enough, cos it isn't. And if you personally are anything like as grumpy and negative as you are on the boards, you've probably got a reputation as being a miserable, disruptive person with little or no credibility with anyone. Sorry, but the message isn't enough, or even the most important thing to people today - it's the presentation and the person delivering that are of most initial importance, and no amount of railing against how shit that situation is will do any good. As Chymera said on another thread, when an organism finds itself in a hostile environment, it has 3 choices:

1. Die
2. Adapt itself to survive
3. Adapt the environment to survive

At the moment in most people's minds, unionism simply does not have the ability or leverage to opt for (3) so you need to look at (2)...and drop the assumption that because you're morally right that everyone should and will agree.

 

[glenquagmire]

Try telling them that. They just will not wear it. It just goes in one ear and out the other to accompanying titters and sniggering.

Workers they may theoretically be.

But they're happier being corporte-ladderclimbing ass-pirational, individualistic crawlers.

What, ALL white collar workers?

Piss off.

I don't like to be unnecessarily abusive, but I also don't like seeing my entire workplace of decent people, fairly low-paid (mostly white-collar admin) workers, plus everyone like us in the country, being slandered.

 

[belboid]

Try telling them that. They just will not wear it. It just goes in one ear and out the other to accompanying titters and sniggering.

Workers they may theoretically be.

But they're happier being corporte-ladderclimbing ass-pirational, individualistic crawlers.

putting on a shirt automatically turns people into bosses lackies? What idiotic nonsense.Tho with that attitude, no wonder all your workmates ignored your exhortations.

 

[Fruitloop]

It looks like the impression of TU-ism living in a cloth-capped Lowrie-esque fucking fantasy world is not just a matter of language - it obviously goes much deeper than that.

 

[dennisr]

What, ALL white collar workers?

Piss off.

I don't like to be unnecessarily abusive, but I also don't like seeing my entire workplace of decent people, fairly low-paid (mostly white-collar admin) workers, plus everyone like us in the country, being slandered.

I wouldn't worry, its just poster 'projecting' again.

Its the online equivilent of the sad bloke in the kitchen at the party. he's probably OK in that he'll open the fridge door for you as long as you can avoid attempts to engage in 'conversation' about him, by him.

 

[dennisr]

It looks like the impression of TU-ism living in a cloth-capped Lowrie-esque fucking fantasy world is not just a matter of language - it obviously goes much deeper than that.

No the TUs are all hopeless as well - apparently.

The world view of the ultra-emo

 

[nino_savatte]

Try telling them that. They just will not wear it. It just goes in one ear and out the other to accompanying titters, sniggering and accusations of "you're living in the past".

Workers they may theoretically be.

But they're happier being corporte-ladderclimbing ass-pirational, individualistic crawlers.

What a load of bigoted guff.

 

[poster342002]

Oh, for heaven's sake, I've spent over 10 years being polite about it, using reasoned argument (that falls on deaf ears) and so forth - but there comes a point where you get so sick of hearing people defending and supporting attacks on their own working conditions, get so sick of seeing majority-scabbing etc that you just loose all sympathy and adopt an attitude of sheer contempt.

 

[poster342002]

What a load of bigoted guff.

Sorry - it's been my working lifetime's expereince of being a white-collar worker and seeing first hand the reactioanay, anti-solidarity attitudes that prevail.

 

[kyser_soze]

Which of course is obviously going to win people over isn't it? Because they won't listen to you and do something you think is self-evidently wrong you alienate them instead? It's the same response that religious types have to challenges against creationism - how can you not believe such a self-evident truth? You must be an idiot and I will no longer engage with you.

The TU movement took decades to grow in Victorian England, and since the 80s the whole notion of unionism has been questioned; indeed, it's only in the last few years that unions seem to have rediscovered some kind of self-identity (which unfortunately appears to be a self-serving power cadre that offers little alternative to boss politics)...unionism, as with worker solidarity, is a secular form of the psychological bonding that followers of the same religious faith have; that someone does believe in the same things as you, and they'll stand with you to defend them...but like religious folk complain about materialism and consumerism taking people away from such spiritual concerns, the 80s and the visible success that many people have from being bastards has done much the same to the idea of solidarity. So while you're not on a religious crusade, you are on a secular one - and it will take time and patience to work because it means altering people's attitudes to reality as much as to their own workplace lives.

 

[poster342002]

The point is, when you get people who are self-evidently suffering as a result of coroporate practises yet continue to sycophantically support them and argue in favour of attacks on their own conditions, what can you say?

 

[belboid]

you just loose all sympathy and adopt an attitude of sheer contempt.

fine, you maintain your contempt. And just fuck off, then.

 

[poster342002]

fine, you maintain your contempt. And just fuck off, then.

Well, I'd like to see what you'd do.

 

[nino_savatte]

Sorry - it's been my working lifetime's expereince of being a white-collar worker and seeing first hand the reactioanay, anti-solidarity attitudes that prevail.

If you aren't a manager, you're a worker. It's that simple. You must work in some pretty shite places, that's all I can say.

 

[belboid]

Well, I'd like to see what you'd do.

well, more than you, clearly. You keep your lovely contempt for workers, I'll have none of it. At least you've admitted it tho, one small step.

 

[kyser_soze]

The point is, when you get people who are self-evidently suffering as a result of coroporate practises yet continue to sycophantically support them and argue in favour of attacks on their own conditions, what can you say?

Treat it like sales...each one of their comments is an objection to be overcome...give a couple of actual examples, cos what you're making, is, at heart, a sales pitch.

Forgive me for this, but you might need to adjust your language into corporate speak, since it's something they can potentially understand and relate to. Individualism can be unenlightened and selfish, or enlightened and..well, less selfish (altruistic is too strong a word to use)...if someone is so dim that they support a detrimental change in working conditions, find out what their thinking is...

 

[poster342002]

If you aren't a manager, you're a worker. It's that simple. .

Pfff! In most white-collar workpalces the managers outnumber the workers!

You must work in some pretty shite places, that's all I can say.

I used to think that, too - but I've come to realise they are the norm rather than the exception that so many leftists like to pretend are representative of workpalce UK as a whole.

Basically, my blinkers came off about 10 years ago.

 

[poster342002]

well, more than you, clearly. You keep your lovely contempt for workers, I'll have none of it. At least you've admitted it tho, one small step.

So basiaclly, you can't explain just what you'd do when confronted with such attitutes day in day out? When you find everying has been tried and failed?

 

[poster342002]

Treat it like sales...each one of their comments is an objection to be overcome...give a couple of actual examples, cos what you're making, is, at heart, a sales pitch.

Forgive me for this, but you might need to adjust your language into corporate speak, since it's something they can potentially understand and relate to. Individualism can be unenlightened and selfish, or enlightened and..well, less selfish (altruistic is too strong a word to use)...if someone is so dim that they support a detrimental change in working conditions, find out what their thinking is...

Been tried, to no avail.

 

[bluestreak]

Thing is, I reckon that temp and contract workers need their own union - depsite what some might think, lots of us continue to temp out of choice, and while there is some alignment with staff workers, the most pressing issues are sick leave, agency cuts from hourly rates and holiday (altho that's being addressed apparently)

Word.

 

[belboid]

So basiaclly, you can't explain just what you'd do when confronted with such attitutes day in day out? When you find everying has been tried and failed?

I'm not going to even try to argue with someone who proclaims his contempt for the working-class. Its that attitude (probably obvious earlier, a typical student trot type). Your just full of self-justifying shit, and excuses for sitting back and doing fuck all. Still, you're all right, Jack.

 

[poster342002]

I'm not going to even try to argue with someone who proclaims his contempt for the working-class. Its that attitude (probably obvious earlier, a typical student trot type). Your just full of self-justifying shit, and excuses for sitting back and doing fuck all. Still, you're all right, Jack.

So, basically, no clue at all. Just the standard trot-style-denunciations and distortions whenever someone says they can see the elephant in the living room.

I'd defy you to work in any of the places I've worked and not either come out the same way or end up taking refuge in 100% facility time TU work.

 

[Belushi]

I used to think that, too - but I've come to realise they are the norm rather than the exception that so many leftists like to pretend are representative of workpalce UK as a whole.

Seriously poster, how do you explain the fact that so many other people have had better experiences of workplaces than you - thats not to say everyone things their workplaces are perfect but your experience seems to be uniformly hellish?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Poster, the problem here is that really you're not talking about something people can do, you're talking about something people shouldn't do.