Something left-minded people COULD do ...

[bluestreak]

Spot-on. And it's that we have to firstly recognise and secondly come up with a strategy to begin to chip away at it. At present, the left does not do this and simply trumpets hollow "solid!" "massive!" "loads of solidarty" type rhetoric that ignores this grim reality.

Again, I'm not sure who the left are. If you mean the SWP and the SA and all them irrelevent buggers I have to admit that aside from what gets blathered on about on here I know nothing. I work on the principal that when they come up with something relevent to my life then someone on here will no doubt start a thread on it.

In my world there isn't a 'left' in terms of organised politics. There are loads of people i know who are left-wing or anarchists, but most of them aren't involved in organised politics because of all the irrelevence and in-fighting. They stick to issues-based activism or drinking themselves to death.

Again, I see this as part of a wider social problem. There is no solidarity, not even amongst leftists. When we try and create solidarity, there's always someone who expects you to support their position uncritically but won't support yours. And then pow! Split, fraction, argument.

 

[tbaldwin]

I'm always being criticised around here for saying the left's crap but not offering any alternative strategy. Well, here's one serious idea:

Instead of getting themselves into semi-permant Trade Union roles where they're cut off off from the membership on the shopfloor and stuck in a short-circuit of like-minded people in the TU room, left-minded people could remain in ordinary workplace jobs and try to argue the case at the coalface instead several miles from it.

Thoughts?

I dont like it.

Seriously though, i think its shite. And is just another old left tactic. I think if you look at the history of the SWP or the IMG or the Socialist review group you will find arguements for Socialists becoming entrenched in working class communities and jobs.
Apparently Dagenhams Ford Branch had quite a few leftie graduates working on the shop floor...The IMG and Big Flame etc all had a view that if the workers wouldnt come to them they had to go the workers....
The thing is though that if your aspiration is to get the lowest paid job you can,nobody is going to take you that seriously are they?

 

[kyser_soze]

The weirdest thing again is the constant reference to things like 'the shop floor' - what % of the UKs population actually have a shop floor these days?

 

[belboid]

I dont like it.

Seriously though, i think its shite. And is just another old left tactic. I think if you look at the history of the SWP or the IMG or the Socialist review group you will find arguements for Socialists becoming entrenched in working class communities and jobs.
Apparently Dagenhams Ford Branch had quite a few leftie graduates working on the shop floor...The IMG and Big Flame etc all had a view that if the workers wouldnt come to them they had to go the workers....
The thing is though that if your aspiration is to get the lowest paid job you can,nobody is going to take you that seriously are they?

but that is not what poster is talking about, is it?

 

[poster342002]

I dont like it.

Seriously though, i think its shite. And is just another old left tactic. I think if you look at the history of the SWP or the IMG or the Socialist review group you will find arguements for Socialists becoming entrenched in working class communities and jobs.
Apparently Dagenhams Ford Branch had quite a few leftie graduates working on the shop floor...The IMG and Big Flame etc all had a view that if the workers wouldnt come to them they had to go the workers....
The thing is though that if your aspiration is to get the lowest paid job you can,nobody is going to take you that seriously are they?

Well, I think part of the problem is the surfeit of graduate-lefties making a lot of noise about things they don't have much real experience of. This pisses people off, too. The best thing graduate-lefties could do if they want to help is volunteer for envelope-stuffing duties.

I was more talking of ordinary, left-minded people in the workplace.

 

[poster342002]

The weirdest thing again is the constant reference to things like 'the shop floor' - what % of the UKs population actually have a shop floor these days?

You may even have a point there - it's an old term that doesn't resonate with a lot of people anymore, I suppose. "The workplace" is probably a better term for want of any other.

 

[tbaldwin]

but that is not what poster is talking about, is it?

OK. But i think Aspiration is a huge issue for a left that seems dominated by the thoughts of a self hating middle class. They dont seem to like it that most people want more than there parents had.
And staying in a job to do good things sounds a bit Bob Holman/Mother theresa like for me.....

Sorry poster if im barking up the wrong tree....or just barking generally.

 

[mk12]

I'm always being criticised around here for saying the left's crap but not offering any alternative strategy. Well, here's one serious idea:

Instead of getting themselves into semi-permant Trade Union roles where they're cut off off from the membership on the shopfloor and stuck in a short-circuit of like-minded people in the TU room, left-minded people could remain in ordinary workplace jobs and try to argue the case at the coalface instead several miles from it.

As anyone can see from the Education & Employment branch of this forum, workplace attitudes are currently dire. There IS no solidarity in most workplaces and most people have an individualistic, ass-pirational, "I'm all right jack" attitude. The only contrary argument they ever hear is either a newlsetter from the TU room (written off as "those types") or the occasional, isolated leftist person such as myself - who just gets written off as a "troublemaker" who NOBODY in the workplace is backing up whenever they omplain about conditons, pay, unreasonable managmet etc etc.

Most workplace activists don't see this - as they immedialtey start getting themsleves onto one TU committee after another rather than stay at the coalface and build the much-needed basic building clocks at the ground level.

Thoughts?

In total agreement.

 

[Fruitloop]

The weirdest thing again is the constant reference to things like 'the shop floor' - what % of the UKs population actually have a shop floor these days?

Innit. Conjures up images of flying sparks, cauldrons of molten metal and huge mechanical contraptions, like the place they end up in at the end of Terminator. Not most people's experience of work in the 00s surely?

 

[kyser_soze]

Relate the position someone like myself (temping as an exec PA, self-funding IT training for career development), to someone working in a warehouse...my goals, my needs from my job are completely different. For me this is a temporary thing, in fact I'm moving toward being self-employed again...aside from my identifying with my fellow workers as wage slaves (which quite frankly is an abstract excercise), what should motivate me to potentially risk what I have - a decent hourly rate that I've got because I've worked damn hard, and quite frankly excellent working conditions - in support of someone else. And don't try the old 'Well you just should, it's a moral duty' - my first responsibility is to ensure I can survive...help me out here...

 

[Fruitloop]

Because it could be you that needs it one day, and why should you enjoy a long career of 'I'm alright Jack' and then expect solidarity when things turn bad for you?

 

[tbaldwin]

The weirdest thing again is the constant reference to things like 'the shop floor' - what % of the UKs population actually have a shop floor these days?

Shop workers?

 

[kyser_soze]

Because it could be you that needs it one day, and why should you enjoy a long career of 'I'm alright Jack' and then expect solidarity when things turn bad for you?

See, this is the kind of glib 'You shouldn't think I'm alright Jack' answer I always get to this question. It's little more than 'You have a moral duty to your fellow worker'...well sorry, but I doubt my 'fellow worker' would give that much of a toss quite honestly...how should I calculate the risk to my own wellbeing by supporting someone who may never be in a position to support me? This assumption that I should do something now on the basis that I might need something in the future is bollocks.

 

[tbaldwin]

This assumption that I should do something now on the basis that I might need something in the future is bollocks.

Do you have any insurance?

 

[kyser_soze]

I have had insurance in the past...

Ok, I'll come at it from a different tack...I'm relatively open to the idea of (say) a temp workers union - could be used to pressure govt into using angencies based around social enterprise models for temp work (example...when I went into Reed looking for a similar role to mine (and knowing what the pay grade would be working direct), they were taking an additional £4 an hour out of the salary...I'm not against unions (except that closed shop bollocks), but for my skillset, for the jobs that I've done and aim to go on doing, I'm basically better off as a free agent...

 

[Fruitloop]

I don't get where you are coming from. You are at the mercy of capital in terms of your livelihood and the only defence you have is the solidarity of the rest of the working class (assuming that you consider yourself to be a member of the working class that is). So it is in your interests to promote the solidarity of the working class and its ability to defend itself from ruling class attacks on living standards, welfare etc etc.

 

[tbaldwin]

I have had insurance in the past...

Keep arguing with Fruitloop. And you might need some in the future.

 

[kyser_soze]

I don't get where you are coming from. You are at the mercy of capital in terms of your livelihood and the only defence you have is the solidarity of the rest of the working class (assuming that you consider yourself to be a member of the working class that is). So it is in your interests to promote the solidarity of the working class and its ability to defend itself from ruling class attacks on living standards, welfare etc etc.

And this is the Great Assumption that leftists make - that as soon as someone understands their relative position to capital that it's immediately clear to them that solidarity is the only logical way forward. That you don't understand where I'm coming from - and me as a relatively aware person of the relationship between capital and worker - shows the gulf of understanding between yourselves and the kinds of workers poster is talking about. If someone like me can't see any clear benefit or even security from it, why should anyone else?

 

[Fruitloop]

Well, what are the other ways forward? As far as I can see if you don't see solidarity as the only way forward then you have overestimated your own potency versus the power that capital can deploy in the service of its own interests. Maybe for the moment your interests and capitals are more or less congruent, but this situation is temporary and could change at any time.

Solidarity etc is a right pain in the arse, so if there was some other easier option do you not think that people would already have taken it?

 

[butchersapron]

And this is the Great Assumption that leftists make - that as soon as someone understands their relative position to capital that it's immediately clear to them that solidarity is the only logical way forward. That you don't understand where I'm coming from - and me as a relatively aware person of the relationship between capital and worker - shows the gulf of understanding between yourselves and the kinds of workers poster is talking about. If someone like me can't see any clear benefit or even security from it, why should anyone else?

Someone like you? You mean a manager?

 

[kyser_soze]

I haven't been a manager for about 3 years now BA, keep up.

 

[butchersapron]

And you've clearly not got any traits of manahement consciousness left in you! I think it's a fairly simple point that peoples material positions can and do influence their relationship to 'solidarity'.

Also, i don't think that anyone really imagines that solidarity is built around formalised reasoning and arguments that is accepted on the basis of how persuasive they are - it's based on historical results, practical achiements - and that means getting your hands dirty depsite the difficulties. Peopel aren'r daft, if some one is getting rsults then they're probably going to want in too.

 

[kyser_soze]

So, the UK temporary workers Union starts here then!

P.S. How do you start a union

 

[butchersapron]

Fuck me, my spelling is totally gone.

 

[kyser_soze]

You got boxing gloves on?

 

[glenquagmire]

I must admit, when I was temping in the civil service as a youngster, I didn't join the PCS but I think they would have taken me. Where I work we would certainl accept temps in our (general) union though none that I know of have joined.

By the way, I am currently representing our Exec PA in a bullying case against the Chief Exec. Not too optimistic but there you go...

 

[kyser_soze]

Thing is, I reckon that temp and contract workers need their own union - depsite what some might think, lots of us continue to temp out of choice, and while there is some alignment with staff workers, the most pressing issues are sick leave, agency cuts from hourly rates and holiday (altho that's being addressed apparently)

 

[glenquagmire]

Then you're getting into the whole "small but specialised or large and powerful unions" argument, which could go on for a while.

Fair enough, though in the mean time you'd be better off joining one of the general unions (UNITE or GMB) or the recognised union for your workplace if there is one which will provide you with some employment protection and support.

A friend of mine is branch sec for a branch which includes workers in newsagents, betting shops, solicitors offices and even cleaners on a US warship. Obviously they don't have much workplace union activity but still benefit from membership in other ways.

 

[durruti02]

poster i sympathise where you are coming from but actually we just have to carry on.

I am lucky .. i work in an area with a lot of old school blokes who generally pro TU pro left anti leftist!

but helped with a good meeting today with a lot of privatised workers .. mainly non english who have been screwed badly by both their old union GMB (spits) and employer .. but we are getting good improvements along the way ..

.. we have though been fucked up along the way by enough scabby types

sympathise with kyser too .. actually logically arse licking and creeping is the best way for at least a minority and possibly a simple majority .. but that approach leads gradually down hill but appeals to principles do not work with such people

.. if i now after 20 years went full time union i think people would support that .. but equally when you do get white collar trendy lefties in the union there is hostility to them ..

we currently have a young essentially syndicalist full timer who people are pretty interested in ..

 

[kyser_soze]

but equally when you do get white collar trendy lefties in the union there is hostility to them ..

I think calling people 'white collar trendy lefties' is the beginings of hostililty...